Debate: Alexei Navalny and Yevgeny Fyodorov

Good evening once again, ladies and gentlemen. This is

the evening interactive program *Bottom Line*

on the airwaves of Finam FM radio.

My name is Yury Nko, and I’m glad that you’ve

tuned your radios to 99.6 FM in

Moscow and the Moscow Region, or

are listening to us on the website ww finamfm. The topic

of today’s program is connected to and

follows on from the previous edition of *Dry

Residue*, when my guest was

Alexei Navalny, a lawyer and the founder

of the Rospil portal, and at that time Alexei said

a phrase that, broadly speaking, really struck

a chord with many people, let’s put it that way. There were various reactions,

various comments, but since Finam FM is

a platform for discussion,

we accordingly present both points

of view. Alexei Navalny, lawyer,

founder of the Rospil portal. Alexei, good

evening. And his counterpart, Yevgeny Fyodorov,

chairman of the State Duma

of the Russian Federation Committee on

Economic Policy and the Development

of Entrepreneurship, from United Russia.

Yevgeny, good evening. Thank you, gentlemen, for

agreeing to come. It’s very important for us

to speak with you in this kind of free-discussion

format. And the phrase in question was

the following, from Mr. Navalny: United

Russia is a party of thieves and

the corrupt. Today we want

to determine in this discussion just

how well-founded these claims are. I

want, you know, to conduct this broadcast, gentlemen,

without emotion, as they say,

strictly on the facts, so it’s clear what

your position is based on, for example, Alexei, or what

your position is based on, Yevgeny.

But first, let me remind listeners of our means

of communication. For radio listeners, that is

the website on the internet: www.finam.ru.

Yes, but still, the main thing is our

meeting here, our conversation and live

on-air exchange. Essentially, I’ll stay quiet as a kind

of arbiter today — not exactly a typical

role for a journalist. And if emotions

start running too high, I’ll step in

and stop things, as they say in the State Duma

(the lower house of Russia’s parliament), “Turn off the fifth microphone.” Yes, or the first

microphone, and I’ll give

the opposing side the opportunity

to speak. Alexei, since you are, in a sense, the main instigator of

the topic we are

discussing today, let’s

speak factually: on what basis was it

said? It was a claim, yes, that

the United Russia party is a party of thieves

and the corrupt. Ah, so you want today’s program to

avoid

things running too high, because my evaluative

judgment is that United Russia is

a party of thieves and crooks. I came to this

conclusion based on what I have observed of

the United Russia party over many years, and I

study its work. I would like to draw

attention to the fact that on my blog I conducted

a poll in which 40,000 people took

part, of whom

96% confirmed my evaluative judgment.

That is, all these people also consider

the United Russia party a party of thieves and

crooks. These people see every day

a situation in which every corrupt official

in our country seeks to find for himself

the best possible refuge. At present,

the best refuge is the

United Russia party, which provides political

cover and the opportunity for any corrupt official

to avoid punishment, and we see this

every day. We see it. What is the biggest

high-profile anti-corruption

scandal right now? It is Yury Mikhailovich Luzhkov.

For many years everyone said: this is

corruption, this is abuse of official

position. This man was on the Supreme

Council of the United Russia party; he was

completely

making billions with total impunity, and

United Russia

applauded him. He headed the party’s list

in elections,

was a member of the Supreme Council, and so on. As soon as

he left United Russia, suddenly against

him all these things began. Medvedev

says there was corruption. My friends, but what

about all those years — did nothing happen? But I

would like to continue: those corrupt officials and

crooks who remain in United Russia

face no punishment at all. Let’s take

Resin: he joined United Russia quite

recently, with his famous $1 million watch.

Has he faced any kind of

punishment? No. He is still the

deputy mayor of Moscow, and I am shocked

when another United Russia member, Mr.

Sobyanin, says how terribly

the city was built, that our building density

is three times higher than in Manhattan,

but who did that? It was done by

Resin, a United Russia member with a

$1 million watch, a man who has not spent a single day

in his life working

in business or commerce, and so on. They do

all this every day, and therefore

naturally,

we, the people who can see all this and

analyze it— Alexei, wait, well,

look, using the examples of Luzhkov

and Resin, I can argue with you, yes, and

I will certainly try to do so, both with you

and with Mr.

Fyodorov. But on the basis of two people, yes,

can one accuse the entire party of being

a party of thieves? I have brought into this studio the most terrible

document imaginable for

United Russia, the most devastating compromising material.

Here, I’m showing it to your camera,

which may be called a list.

The Supreme Council of the United Russia party—I

can go through it for you name by name. Here,

let's name some names.

Well, Gryzlov, with his Petrik and that wonderful

water. Exactly—and that marvelous

water program, which not I but

members of the Russian Academy of Sciences

consider to be a scam.

There you have it: United Russia is a party of crooks and

thieves. The word “crook” is confirmed here by academics.

Luzhkov, by the way, is still

for some reason still listed on the website.

Our chairman of the Accounts Chamber

called the situation in which Mr.

Rakhimov transferred into the ownership of his

son the entire Bashkir fuel and energy complex, the company

Bashneft, the biggest theft in history.

He remained president of the republic until the very last moment

and still has not been punished; still

nothing has happened. AFK Sistema

bought from him what, in the opinion of the Accounts Chamber,

they had simply stolen, for $2 billion.

How did all this happen? Well, these are

all people with the prefix “former,” except for

Gryzlov. Mr. Tkachev, the current

splendid governor of Krasnodar Krai,

has a niece who, at just over 20,

is the owner of

the region’s largest poultry farms, worth 1 billion rubles (about $33 million at the time),

and so on. Can we find out why

these remarkable

entrepreneurial talents of children

appear only among members of United Russia?

Another member of the Supreme Council, Mr.

Misharin, governor of Sverdlovsk Oblast,

has a very young daughter, 18 years old,

who is opening some kind of plywood factories there.

She is the founder of dozens of

companies. How does that happen? What kind of

business school do they attend? Coincidences,

coincidences—these coincidences are very

suspicious. Mr. Kostin, VTB Bank—

he is one of my favorite characters. I

am investigating the theft of $150 million from VTB Bank,

and I can see that he, that is,

this member of the Supreme Council of United Russia,

has not the slightest desire—Yes, I understand you correctly—

that you have this kind of

factual material, at the very least,

in abundance. There is a lot of it, because the list

is long. That is, I could—it would take

several programs for each person on

this list. We can talk about it because

these people

at the level of the Supreme Council of the party—these

people want to get into the party, into all these top

councils, in order to avoid

responsibility for what they have done.

And they want to grab what they can—that is the only

motivation at the moment. Why else

do people join United Russia? To tear our country apart with impunity.

That was

Alexei Navalny. Yevgeny

Fyodorov, this is

exactly where we began the conversation. This is simply

abuse. It cannot even really be

described any other way. And those alleged facts

that were voiced for some reason—of course

these are not facts, just chatter. On

each one of them, there is really no point in

discussing anything, because there is a clear

procedure in cases where

the law is violated; that procedure works. But we

understand perfectly well that, of course,

especially after the crisis, we are feeling

a gigantic

pressure campaign against Russia on every

front. A ferocious attack is underway—not against United

Russia, but against Russia, against Russia as a whole.

A very aggressive propaganda

campaign is underway. I lived through Soviet times,

though I was not a communist, and I remember

those Soviet propaganda campaigns

in the style of “Free Angela Davis”

and “Free Luis Corvalán” (a Chilean communist politician). Well, this is

an extremely harsh campaign aimed at,

of course, destabilizing the country. It is happening

alongside terrorist attacks, to destroy the country.

And the goal of this campaign, of course,

is our successes. And those successes, of course,

undermine the world order. We must

understand that clearly. The world is harsh; in it

there are no easy or carefree

things. There is always an intense

competitive struggle going on. Sometimes that struggle

is fought with tanks and airplanes; in

peacetime, as now—relatively speaking, of course,

“peacetime”—it takes the form of revolutions, as we can see. Half

the world is gradually beginning to be drawn into them.

It is clear they are being organized from a single

center. This is the unipolar world defending itself,

with its overconsumption, against everyone

who, by virtue of a certain dynamic,

not only Russia, might throw it

some kind of challenge, even hypothetically, even

potentially. Yevgeny, am I understanding you correctly—

I’m going to interrupt you—yes? You compared

your counterpart, Mr. Navalny, with

terrorists? Of course—with people who

...

You see, motivation can take different forms, and in

this case, this motivation, of course,

is at work. It is especially visible—after all, you and I

understand that, say, on the internet,

our analysis shows that

approximately several thousand people

are effectively outsourced to the American

embassy. Their task is destabilization in

the country. Well, that is their job. And similar people

worked in African countries and

prepared [the same thing]. So in fact, we see that

quite clearly, in Russia

some kind of revolt is being prepared, aimed at

destabilizing the situation in the country, at

knocking it off the path of the opportunities

that it has gained. Generally speaking,

we somehow forget all this very quickly:

that we live in an adult world, and

Of course, we have had tremendous successes, absolutely.

They are connected with United Russia (the main pro-Kremlin political party). I’m not

saying that they are not.

They should not be overestimated as ideal people. In fact,

they are ordinary people, average people in this country,

ordinary people in the country like everyone else. But

the only thing that really distinguishes them

for the most part is that they

prefer, and understand the necessity of,

collective action to save

the country, even at the moment of its founding. Don’t

forget that when United Russia

was created, generally speaking, after the

collapse of

the USSR, Russia itself was almost destroyed. Don’t

forget that when we came in, this was

10 years ago, with Putin, and Russia

was fighting a war in Chechnya. More than that, the most

important thing was not even that — an agreement had been signed

with Dudayev (Dzhokhar Dudayev, Chechen separatist leader) on

the removal of Chechnya from Russia. What

does the removal of Chechnya from Russia mean? It means the removal of all

the republics. And that means the Far East,

the Caucasus, and the entire south of the country. In other words,

Russia effectively had only about 2,

3, 4, maybe 5 years left. Please tell me, those

facts that Alexei

Navalny spoke about — are you prepared to discuss them? There were facts,

there were names mentioned — I know those names,

I heard them. I don’t know — if

there is something on Luzhkov (Yury Luzhkov, former mayor of Moscow), then it should be submitted to

the prosecutor’s office and the court, and he should be jailed, like

Khodorkovsky (Mikhail Khodorkovsky, former oil tycoon). Khodorkovsky stole,

he was the richest man in the country. I simply

thank God have been involved in politics for a long time — for

20 years. All of this was created before my eyes, under me,

the Russian state was being created.

Incidentally, with American advisers — tens of

thousands of people came and helped create it. Under me

there emerged that kind of information space,

totally destructive

for the country. Just look, for example,

at the reaction of the Russian media to any

events, and compare it with the European media. No, well,

wait, I understand that you want to

shift all of this into a global context, but

I want to understand. This is all just nonsense, in my

Listen, if there are claims against Yury Mikhailovich (Yury Luzhkov),

there is a procedure for that, there will be

a trial and everything else. He will be convicted, and then

we will say that he stole something there, or that something

happened. And the same goes for any fact.

As for some of these “facts,” they are basically anecdotal,

simply made up, openly based

on invented stories about some company, like

the one with Petrikov. That is simply

an outright kind of

sort of

attempt to destabilize the country. The goal, within the framework of this,

is to claim power in Russia. No,

look — no, they are not seeking power.

They simply, you understand — I don’t even

have any particular attitude toward them. They

are simply playing for another team,

the team of another country, from within this country.

Mr. Navalny, please tell us:

which team are you playing for? Which country’s team? And

unlike United Russia, I work

I play for the team of the multinational

people of the Russian Federation. That is

quite easy to prove, because

Dear Yevgeny, frankly, what

you have said is astonishing and

remarkable, because you brought with you

so many documents, and I thought that

you would be able to offer a substantive rebuttal

regarding the facts of corruption in United

Russia, which seem to me completely

obvious. Nevertheless, what we hear is:

“Luzhkov stole, this is all…”

“the Americans, the Americans, this is all the CIA and

the Mossad.” The Accounts Chamber says Rakhimov (Murtaza Rakhimov, former president of Bashkortostan) stole

the Bashkir fuel and energy complex, and yet it’s all supposedly some

people trying to destroy the country. I have

a question: what about those people who

steal in Russia and move the money abroad — are they

really working for Russia at all? By the way,

in your quite recent

past, you worked as the deputy of

a man named Adamov (Yevgeny Adamov, former Russian minister of atomic energy),

who was our minister of atomic energy,

and who, I remind you, has now received

a suspended sentence for

laundering millions of dollars in the United States. Are all these

people working for Russia?

Abramovich (Roman Abramovich), the governor of one of the country’s regions,

who permanently resides in

the United Kingdom, in London, and is

a tax resident of London, who

even when he comes to Chukotka, flies out to spend the night

in Anchorage, Alaska.

These people are such patriots? Just

think about it, Mr. Zhukov.

And

the one who is literally being described today

as being linked to a monstrous scandal involving

embezzlement at the Ministry of Regional Development — his

children study in London. Your colleague in

United

Russia was accused in Spain of ties to

criminal groups and of

buying real estate, laundering funds, and

so on. All of you in United Russia are tied to

the West in every possible way, 100,000

million times more than any

United Russia figure. The head of Transneft, Vainshtok,

against whom I am trying to pursue

criminal prosecution — but United Russia

— he left for London, and now he lives in

Israel and invests in real estate in

the United States. This is exactly the United Russia that

protects those who are sucking everything out of

Russia.

And these arguments — to what extent are they, after all,

really factual material, yes, that

puts United Russia, to put it mildly,

in a rather uncomfortable position?

As for United Russia, I say once again...

party members, and each of them, whether or not

they are a member of United Russia—it doesn’t matter who, any

citizen of Russia who, if they are

found to be involved in corruption or other

criminal activities—there is a procedure, and

it doesn’t matter whether they are a member of the Communist Party, the LDPR (Liberal Democratic Party of Russia),

or some other party—under this procedure, they

will be held accountable

well, sooner or later, but they will be

held accountable and will face

punishment. This has absolutely nothing to do

with—there’s no question here of some kind of

party affiliation. Now, essentially—and by the way, I’m not

arguing—the entire oligarchic system in Russia

I saw how it was created. It was, of course,

created by the Americans, simply

selecting them one by one, like presidents, the Baltics (the Baltic states)

one by one, and this is a major problem that

still hasn’t been overcome. I’ll tell you more:

in Russia, all business is either

state-owned—I mean large and

medium-sized—or

foreign-owned. I know of one or two exceptions

in this enormous country with thousands of

entrepreneurs. The large-scale system that remains

was handed down to us

by those in power. No, this is a process of transition to

a national course. More than that, we

understand that, of course, the terrorism

that is shaking us today is clearly

foreign-sponsored, ordered from abroad. I want

to clarify: you are saying that

the system has essentially not changed since

the 1990s.

Yes, but the leader of your party has been in

power for 10 years. Yes, as for power, you

must clearly understand: when the leader of our

party came to power 10 years ago, and we

began to come in as a team, the country was

first of all, literally disappearing—that is,

the very survival of the country was at stake, first of all, and

that problem had to be solved. I’ll tell you,

for example, at that time, out of the one-and-a-half-million-strong

Russian army

willing to fight for territorial integrity,

for example, only 40,000 people agreed. That is

a gigantic, simply total—well, I want

to understand these questions after all

business, corruption—business relies on this

not for no reason. If you are now

a small business owner—let me tell you honestly,

I work in economics—if you are a small

business owner, at some stage

you move into the category of medium-sized

business, the bank you

apply to will tell you: go to a foreign

jurisdiction, because it relies on

the ratings system, and the ratings system

is structured in such a way that the risks are

built in so that you are effectively forced to move into

a foreign jurisdiction. Once again, excuse me, am I

understanding you correctly that right now

the country’s economy is being run by foreign

capital, and over the past 10 years nothing has

been changed? One at a time—I’ll also tell you

what has been changed over the past 10 years—you

just won’t let me get to that, and then

still, corruption—yes, you’re not letting me

get to that, so

uh, this system was built in

from the very beginning, and the media system was also built in

from the very beginning. This, by the way, is a very important

point, because you still are not letting

me say it. I’ll say it—I’ll try.

Look at the reaction, for example,

of the Russian media and, say, the European

media to any events. These are not accidental

things. Just now there was a huge tragedy in

the Baltics (the Baltic states): 10 children died. Yes, I assure you

that for two days this will be discussed by

the European mass media, three at most.

Remember the Lame Horse (the Perm nightclub fire): for three months we had

daily, total brainwashing. These are

not accidental things. This is how

the entire system is set up—to work toward

destabilization, because all our

media do not support us. But you must agree,

the Lame Horse is a vivid example

of corruption in Russia. Well, wait—maybe

it sounds striking, but children killed in

the Baltics, in Estonia, and the dead

people

you don’t even

know—you don’t even know. It’s a question of how

to present the issue. When our brains are being

washed

and destabilized supposedly in order to improve

the situation, this is a mechanism aimed at

destroying the country, at preparing riots

in the country, as is happening now, in my view

Well then, on what basis have you effectively

just accused Mr. Navalny of

the fact that he is rocking the boat—the favorite

expression of Nemtsov and others—but a whole group of

people? Well, all right, then

point two: you say that they are not

seeking power. I didn’t say that.

What I mean is that in Russia they

are unlikely to gain power, and they understand that.

They simply operate in a different

system. It’s like in sports: there are

people who, you know, play for

Spain or someone else—they play for another

team. They have there, for example, if

we’re talking about Nemtsov—as for Navalny, I don’t know—there

is direct income there that is openly known.

A Just Russia even raised it—not even

we did—the specific mechanisms of how this

is paid for, how it works, all of that

is well known. I’ll tell you more: I still

work more in geopolitics, and I’ll say more:

the United States spends annually on

political work in Russia $100 million

officially, from the budget, and separately

it spends on supporting media projects

and separately on individual projects. Well,

for example, you talk about corruption, and I remember

that 3 or 4 years ago

A certain Mr. Paul Wolfowitz came,

wearing holey socks, a former U.S. deputy secretary

of defense, and brought $50 million for

judicial reform in Russia. It is clear

that this money went toward ensuring that the courts

were corrupt. How many years ago was that?

About four years ago. The media wrote about it, so

United Russia was already in power

at the time. And why didn’t you put a stop to this?

How could we stop it? I’m saying again, this is how the

mechanism is set up. But it became

known, didn’t it? It’s a public position, just

like the public financing of

the political process in Russia, say, by

Germany. Likewise, read WikiLeaks—there’s a lot there.

By the way, Alexei filed... Let me finish, yes, so

I’ll tell you. For example, Vilis...

Look. Yes, I liked how last year

the ambassador in Lithuania wrote about how he

covered up

the transfer of money to the opposition—they were caught,

Lithuanian police caught the couriers

who were carrying money to opposition figures.

They were caught by Lithuanian police. Please,

listen, read it

for yourselves.

How money was being delivered to the opposition—that

doesn’t matter; it’s the same process. They were carrying it

to the opposition, how they were caught, how he

most importantly, arranged

with the Lithuanian Foreign Ministry that the Lithuanian

Foreign Ministry would transport our money for

the opposition figures. What I’m getting at is

that this is how the system works. By the way, it’s the same as in

the Soviet Union. Let me remind you that

the Soviet Union was no angel either and

killed huge numbers of people in terrorist attacks around the world, in

Europe as well. That’s simply how

global competition is structured. Now, as for

Putin, I’m telling you: after he came to power 10

years ago, protecting the country, simply

preserving its existence and the lives of its citizens,

because we remember the 1990s—those were

millions of people dying simply in

gangland shootouts and regional

conflicts. Second, he took control of

the most important things—natural resources.

He canceled the production-sharing agreements

and thereby increased the budget three- to

fourfold by bringing oil under Russian jurisdiction.

By the way, we now face the same problem

in connection with the innovation

economy, with the knowledge of our

specialists, innovations, and so on—the exact same thing.

And those 15 trillion that we will

ultimately receive, just as once before,

naturally no one wants to give up, because

right now that money is being earned in other countries.

So that’s the second point. How many more points are there? Yes,

hundreds of points. May I?

I am simply forced to admit that my

value judgment about United Russia

has changed somewhat. If before I thought

that United Russia was the party of thieves and

crooks, now I understand that United

Russia is apparently the party of thieves, crooks,

and CIA agents, because everything that

Yevgeny is telling us is absolutely clear in that regard.

Russia—because everything... Take that famous

Yeltsin-era

disintegration of Russia: who were those governors

who declared independence for

their republics while still inside the country?

That was, excuse me, Timer Sharipovich

Shaimiev, that was Rakhimov, that was all the rest.

This whole Yeltsin gang, without

any doubt, existed under Yeltsin,

it was a gang, and that entire gang in full

is now in United Russia. Your

great leader Mr. Putin—what was he?

He was Sobchak’s aide, he was in

Chernomyrdin’s party, and all these

these

figures who are in United

Russia. So, frankly, I do not

understand. So then, you know, am I

exposing a CIA conspiracy, or I don’t know,

some kind of masonic plot in our country? Because

they planted everyone, and those people migrated into

United Russia. And so now I’m simply

saying: hell, guys, let’s

investigate how, during the construction of

the Vostochny Cosmodrome, 4 billion were stolen. And you’re telling me something about

geopolitics, terrorist attacks, and

something being financed, and so on. But

it was financed through certain people. Those

people have all absolutely remained

in power. For 10 years you have had a

qualified majority in

the State Duma. United Russia can

pass any measure, push through anything, and

yet for some reason you tell us about some

businessmen under foreign jurisdiction.

So what’s the problem? Then change those laws.

For 10 years you have been able to do anything in this country. You

control the courts, you control

the prosecutor’s office, you control the Central

Election Commission—you control everything under the sun,

television, radio, everything except the internet.

That’s not true. The internet is not media in Russia and is not

controlled at the national level. Well,

is Channel One not controlled? I’ll tell you

everything now, one by one. You will

give me the floor and I’ll answer. I just want

to say in conclusion that United Russia in

its current form did not, excuse me,

come to us from Mars or Venus.

It is an absolutely transformed

principlelessness; it’s just that now there is

much more money. And these people,

having realized that current oil prices

promise

huge profits, have sunk their teeth into all of it, and they

of course will never give up power

voluntarily, because all this money,

all these notorious trillions of dollars,

only pennies remain in this country, while the larger

part of that money turns into

Those very fine yachts that don't need to be rocked.

And those wonderful houses in Spain.

And London real estate, Yevgeny.

You'll answer in a moment, but I want to ask Mr.

Navalny this: I want to clarify something with him.

Alexei, please tell me:

are you seeking power? I have no doubt that you are.

No doubt at all, you are seeking power. Fine.

So, look: yesterday, Vladimir

Putin left. Well, it doesn't matter where he went — he left

big politics. He is no longer the leader

of United Russia, he is no longer

prime minister, and he did not return to the Kremlin.

So I want to understand what happens next. Elections

take place, yes. And then, in fair

elections, the United Russia party will, without

any doubt, suffer a crushing

defeat, without any doubt. In the new

parliament, there will be a whole range of different forces.

I'm not saying that Navalny's party

will come in, or that some hypothetical Navalny

will get a huge, huge percentage of the vote.

A normal

coalition government will be formed in Russia.

There are a great many very smart people. We

all understand what needs to be done and how it should

be done. So the idea that, oh,

if United Russia isn't there, if Shagu-

aimiyev, Luzhkov, and Gryzlov with his

Petriks, and tomorrow everything will collapse and

hot water will stop coming out of the tap — that's

not how it is at all. We know perfectly well what to do and

how to do it. So you're not afraid that

the country could be plunged into chaos? It, it

is already in chaos and disorder. Right now it

is in that state, because what

happened in the stanitsa (Cossack village) of Kushchyovskaya, where two

members of United Russia terrorized and

killed women, men, and infants,

— what do you call that? The fact that they were members of United

Russia is a fact. Tsapok and that other one,

what was his name, Tsepovyaz — they were all members

of United Russia, and they sought to join United

Russia because United Russia gave

them a certain cover, for a time.

Well, of course, once they started killing

children, that no longer helped them. What is now

happening—

that's chaos. What is happening in the North

Caucasus is chaos. The North Caucasus is no longer

really part of the country anymore; it is

absolute chaos. We have neither police nor

prosecutor's office. Yes, what is the level of trust in

the police? What is it?

Percent? This is Alexei Navalny. Yevgeny—

Fyodorov: Well, I would still like to finish

my previous point before answering

the question. If we take the first stage of United

Russia's ten years in power, it was the saving

of millions of people who were actually

dying every year in the brutal

processes that were taking place on the

territory of the Russian Federation at the end

of the previous [period], at the beginning [of this one], and so on. Millions

of people — that's one. The second stage was

that we set ourselves a target of tenfold growth, and we

achieved it. We really did increase, by a factor of 10, in

dollar terms, people's wages over 10

years, and pensions by 12 times. Incidentally, in Germany

pensions over the same period were only able to increase

twofold, for comparison. I'm speaking in

the same

currencies. We did that. And finally, the third

stage: we really moved on to

forming a new type of economy, the so-

called modernization

of a post-industrial

economy, and to establishing basic

order in the market. Let me remind you that our

market still does not function, and because of that we

experience a huge

number of problems, including because

we are being actively prevented from getting it up and running.

In that

meantime, I'll tell you the facts — again, not

about anyone other than the American ambassador and

his staff. Wikileaks, the consideration of the law

on the national payment system — just

as an example, the U.S. earns $4 billion a year

on the kind of national

payment system that exists in Russia.

Accordingly, United Russia raises

the issue — began raising the issue — of changing

this law. The ambassador writes back to

Washington — Wikileaks revealed that he was, as it were,

asking for influence to be exerted, even listing on whom,

directly, name by name, so that such an

event would not occur. I'm even a bit

hesitant to ask you: are those people whom

the U.S. ambassador refers to members of United

Russia? Uh, no, no, not members. But they are influential

people. At the same time, they are not members of United Russia.

Simply no. Just no.

Just read it — it's all available now in translation.

Please, just read it. $4 billion

a year. There are many such cases. But can you say

who these influential people are? Listen, well,

read it yourselves — there are a huge number of such cases.

I'm just giving an example. Well, these are employees

of the administration, of the government apparatus,

not ordinary people walking

the streets. Once again, I'm talking about

how we are being manipulated, and this system

works this way. We have no barrier against it, and

of course we abso- we have, as it were, lost

our sovereignty. I'll tell you more: we, well—

Then Mr. Navalny, who

speaks of the enormous influence of Western

countries— no,

not personalized. They were deciding the fate of the Hotel

Moskva. Have you noticed that in order to

move the Hotel Moskva around in terms of ownership,

this issue was decided by the courts

of the Virgin Islands and

London? Haven't you noticed that? We really do not control

an enormous number of issues from the standpoint of national

strategy.

But let me go in order. So: ten years ago, the war...

Back then, there was simply war, and then the task was

simply to make sure people survived and to lift them up.

Personal well-being has in fact increased by 10

times, and wages and pensions by 12 times now.

Structural changes.

heal faster. As a specialist, I would say this:

I believe you can't deny that Putin, over 10 years,

made such a gigantic leap forward.

He was playing against the whole world — these are serious

matters. And do you really think that you can

change the system with a single law? That is

impossible. What is needed are processes,

political processes. And let me tell you further:

for example, our media were already mentioned.

They talk about Channel One (Russia's main state TV channel), but I was in

Germany.

Well,

and there I spoke with German television,

with people who had just been appointed there in Germany.

They said the leadership had set them the task

of defining it clearly: our entire media space

in Germany is completely controlled by the Americans.

And the task before us is

to seize control of the information space. The same

story

with

the information space of the Russian Federation.

Do you know how much they invested in this?

In political processes, every German

including infants, spent 300-something euros.

This is the European Union, and political

processes abroad are expensive.

Sovereignty is a very expensive luxury in

a unipolar world system. Next,

the oligarchs. Have you noticed, for example, that over

the past 10 years, among the oligarchs who are on

the list, not a single oligarch has appeared

who emerged over the last 10 years?

Only

the same ones are there.

They all came into being in the 1990s.

Maybe they have, so to speak, increased their

wealth. Moreover, the list itself is

a list of the world's princes — it is political

manipulation. And Obama, I can tell you,

on the eve of the election, I spoke with Obama's team.

Well, I saw Obama, and with the team

we had a detailed conversation. I traveled to

America, and the American

president, Bush, underestimated Russia.

Take note: he underestimated Russia, and because of

that America had many problems.

So when we come to power,

this was the conversation — in a month and a half we

will greatly expand the mechanisms

for influencing Russia. And that is what we get:

Mr. Navalny and Mr.

Nemtsov and company. Wait a second, just now

Yevgeny, you have just directly accused Mr.

Navalny of

working for them, if I understood correctly.

If—

I do not have facts regarding Navalny's financing.

I do have them regarding Nemtsov; regarding Navalny, I do not.

That is why I am speaking about the system, but the system

— this is not about one person. In the system, you

implicitly suspect that most likely it is about

the

mechanism, the mechanism, the mechanism.

Of course, it works.

Mechanisms — just as, incidentally, Soviet ones

worked all over the world. There is no difference.

In some Poland, everything that was said in

Moscow was carried out strategically. I

have never in my life seen either

the American ambassador, nor spoken there with

anyone at all — not Obama or anyone else.

And it is remarkable how much

United Russia spends time on

analyzing all of this. So, my friends, what is the problem?

WikiLeaks wrote that certain people

wanted to set someone up there. Fine, then let us

arrest them and bring them to a fair trial. What kind of

remarkable

high-ranking officials are these who

lobby American interests while serving,

apparently, in the government or in

the presidential administration? Where else

could they lobby from? And why is it that

United Russia, or I don't know,

the FSB (Russia's Federal Security Service), or someone else, cannot deal with them? Let us arrest them and

all of them tomorrow. Let us at least send them

into resignation. But that is not happening. And why

is it not happening? Because our

wonderful members of United Russia, as I

already said, keep their money in

America. And if we go to

some city like Miami, we will see

that all the wonderful penthouses have been bought up by

Russian

officials. And all these Russian officials

our Americans

have by the throat, because they understand perfectly well

that any one of these people can have

everything taken away tomorrow, because this is money

laundering: they steal here and invest there. And

that is precisely why, if we are going to speak in such

terms, the current Russian

elite and this generalized United

Russia are absolutely dependent there on

the Americans, on anyone at all. You can do

anything you want with them, because their

property and, in a sense, their freedom

depend on another country — on the country with

which they associate their future, and where

they invest their funds. Well, this is

very dangerous. It is very dangerous.

Of course. And in this sense, I believe that I and

my supporters are acting absolutely

as patriots of our country, unlike

United Russia, which tells

all kinds of horror stories about the Americans but nevertheless

cannot do anything. Much has been said

about the fact that the entire

economy belongs to foreign offshore entities.

Exactly right — everything is registered to

a Cypriot offshore company, and so on. Why does United

Russia — if this is its official position — not...

wants to ratify Article 20

of the UN Convention against Corruption. And in it

it is stated quite clearly that

an official with a small salary

but large income must explain the origin

of that income, otherwise it is

illicit enrichment. Why does United Russia

not want this? There are actually very good

statements and

comments: “We’ll do it, and then they’ll

confiscate [everything].”

I disagreed with a lot of it, but partly I

do agree on this:

corruption is, of course, Russia’s vulnerable spot

and of course, through mechanisms of corruption and

provocations, this is one of the favorite

mechanisms for manipulating the political

situation in Russia. By the way, on this point

I partly agree, and it is no coincidence that

the Khodorkovsky case (referring to Mikhail Khodorkovsky, former Yukos oil company head) thus

became a matter of principle. Yes, the

State Department is for him, the German

authorities are officially and publicly for him, the whole

machinery is behind him. Look at the kind of brainwashing

that is going on—it is truly a

brutal propaganda campaign in

the Soviet style: “Free Angela Davis” (a Soviet-era slogan supporting the American activist)

for Luis Corvalán and for Misha Khodorkovsky.

It is washing our brains. That is how it

works, because corruption allows

them to influence and

manipulate to a significant degree. They caught it in action

over the years, absolutely. On this point, yes, but

the point is that you and I must clearly

understand that political processes are

a science. By the way, we do not study it at all

in Russia, and I will say that in Russia

strategic sovereignty is absent

that is, for the first time in all our history

in the entire history of the Russian

Federation, Russia, and so on, the Tsarist

Empire—we

for the first time

do not have sovereignty at the strategic level

we have no strategic governing bodies; all

strategic questions come to us from

abroad, including how to resolve them, right down to

history textbooks, to this very day

of course, even down to history textbooks, we

are being manipulated, even through

history textbooks. The president raised the issue

remember, about Victory (the Soviet victory in World War II). Why is it that history textbooks

for schoolchildren lie, and we did not

take the easy way out—we examined 600 textbooks

registered by the Ministry

of Education. All of them had foreign grants, naturally

they were written and commissioned so that they would

lie by about 20 percent, but they would never

lie by 100 percent. No, wait. What

you are talking about now is, in

general,

You support the Skolkovo project (Russia’s state-backed innovation hub), don’t you?

Of course. Medvedev is doing everything correctly with

Skolkovo, yes.

But the president of the Skolkovo Foundation, Viktor

Vekselberg, is a tax resident of Switzerland

it is obvious that he ties his future, and the future of his

children, to Switzerland. Why

did it turn out this way? Either here we need to clearly

understand, or

you simply do not know these things, and then

Wait, I am talking about something else: politics is

a major specialized profession, and let me remind you that

in the Soviet Union it was handled by

entire huge departments; the whole Politburo (the top governing body of the Soviet Union)

worked on politics. In Russia, such

departments do not exist at all, in principle. So

in politics there are no such

rigid solutions. Either you do not know this

or, more likely,

you are ruining these, so to speak, processes

you pull them out, put a soldier with a rifle there, and

the situation changes in the other direction

it changes in the opposite direction. So,

what is Vekselberg in Skolkovo? It is

an offer to Russian business to change

the way it works and learn to engage in

business in the field of science. It is clear that

Vekselberg, with his enormous experience as a

businessman, will more quickly

launch it

than simply a person who has never

done this before. So Vekselberg’s work

in the Skolkovo project means a rapid—because otherwise we cannot—launch

of the Skolkovo project

If we bring in

some official who does not know how

to do business at all, that means

the failure of the Skolkovo project for five years

while he learns from our mistakes and

at our expense

Therefore, in the entire country there is not a single

person with Swiss residency

who could

run it; there is almost no one in the country

I know one person, but I will not

name him because there was a doctor involved. But

never mind—there is no one in the country

who, in a certain category of

business, would not be connected with

foreign mechanisms—political,

economic, cultural, and social

All right. Continuing the question: today

a scandal is being discussed involving

a joint fraud by citizens of Hungary and

citizens of Russia in the sale, at an inflated

price several times above market value, of a building belonging to the Ministry

of Regional Development in Hungary. A

criminal investigation is underway, and three people

are in custody

And now it is emerging that the intermediary in

this deal was Vekselberg, who

has business in the United States, and therefore, under

U.S. law, he may be held

liable there. That is, as we have already

said, Vekselberg, being a tax

resident of Switzerland and having business in the United States,

could absolutely be subjected to fines

Criminal prosecution in the United States and in

Switzerland, then. According to your

conspiracy theories, call it whatever you like,

the question is: why won't United Russia tomorrow, in

a united impulse, at a State Duma (lower house of Russia's parliament) session, say:

"Enough is enough, we do not want these risks for

the country." How much is being allocated there—150

billion rubles (about 150 billion rubles, correct me if I'm wrong), and we

are not prepared for this super-

ultra-secret project of innovation,

nanotechnology, and modernization to be run by

some guy who may be

controlled by the Americans. Why won't you do that?

You see, there you go again,

with this sort of thing, you know, that is,

these are absolutely made-up rumors.

By the way, let me remind you that the KGB (Soviet security service) had

a rumors department. That is, even our KGB

perfectly understood the importance of rumors. And

now, let me remind you, there are on the internet

several thousand people who work

under contract for the American

embassy. Rumors—well, as for Hungary, there is an

investigation. Yes, there is a government resolution

from which it is clear that

a building worth 50 million was bought for 116 million.

Well, that's a fact—it's a government resolution.

A fact. There is a procedure for

turning facts into criminal cases and

bringing people to justice. Are you ready to support this

transformation? United Russia as an institution?

All right, there are facts, and there are rumors that someone

has generated. But you must admit, it sounds

suspicious. If it sounds suspicious,

why won't United Russia say tomorrow:

"Here is our request, sent everywhere it can be

sent. We want, we dem—" In general, this

shows—don't forget that in Russia

there is

a mass-scale mechanism. There is a problem with

corruption of a technical nature, but

clearly United Russia has devised mechanisms, and

many of them are working today, and

people are being jailed and proceedings are underway. The Criminal

Code—did United Russia invent it, or what?

The Criminal Procedure Code? Well,

for example, it introduced the concept of declarations,

introduced declarations for purchases of

real estate, vehicles, and many other

things that expose and address problems of

corruption; it adopted the so-called

anti-corruption packages;

it created a commission that reviews

laws—and these laws work, you

understand, the issue of corruption is a

political issue. And therefore these mechanisms

work at the technical level. At the

political level, of course, we need to

turn the whole situation around, because I

am not reminding you by chance: we touched

the biggest corrupter in the country,

Khodorkovsky. Look at the brainwashing

going on in Russia. Who is the master of Russia? If

you look at the case from the perspective of this

story with Khodorkovsky, then of course it is not us in

the information space—not Russia—that

controls it; this is being invented abroad.

Besides Mikhail Khodorkovsky, there are

real cases. Well of course, of course.

State Duma deputies removed

someone from office, in connection with

these corruption-related events.

A member of the Federation Council (upper house of Russia's parliament)—two of them there—

were prosecuted, prosecuted. And then there were also

some people from United Russia who were prosecuted.

People, naturally. Well of course. That is,

so you confirm that among party members

of United Russia there is no difference? I say again,

there is no difference at all who is a member of

which party, or not a member at all.

Russia covers for them.

There is not even any possibility—come on, don't play dumb—

there is not even any possibility, no

significance at all in whether someone is a party

member for a law enforcement officer

who is arresting someone.

It feels as though we are living in some

other country. And Evgeny, I don't know

in some wonderful other

amazing Russia, where—for Navalny—

Why does the question arise: why wasn't it investigated?

Here we go again. Excuse me, maybe I am

stupidly returning to the same thing, yes,

but no one dealt with Luzhkov before,

no one dealt with Rakhimov, no one wants

to deal with him, and to this day no one

wants to deal with the case of

Khodorkovsky there is a trial. I believe that

Khodorkovsky committed various

crimes, although that is not what he is imprisoned for.

And yet, with regard to oligarchs who are very

loyal to United Russia or are members

of United Russia,

are you saying Abramovich did not do everything that

Khodorkovsky did? That all the others did not do it?

That Usmanov does not do it?

Absolutely.

Hmm, for many years now. So, what am I talking about—I have been writing

for many years. We know—you wrote to us about

this, about Transneft, and immediately asked them for

something from them. So in effect, you were engaging in blackmail

—you asked them for, for some

kind of contract. A contract, a contract. That is,

I

a pipeline. You see, by the end of the program

you are, in fact, confirming all my evaluative

judgments. That is, you

are saying that I investigated Transneft in order

to get a contract from them. But that is

simply ridiculous, what you are saying now.

By the way—wait, wait—what

exactly, what contract, what did Navalny ask for?

Because this is very important: some kind of

paid work from them, w-w-with payment, and I

have information about that. Next.

Not necessarily construction—something

to develop there, I don't know, he wanted something

to be developed for Transneft, and you have

That kind of information is excellent. I expect that

you will take it to the police tomorrow, or at least

publish it somewhere. Well, if you do not

publish it, then excuse me, but my

value judgment, and the value judgment

of many people, will be greatly reinforced.

Look, I can simply show it using my own

example. Right now I have given you

this material, yes, and the same material is also

on my website.

Fyodorov, you are talking about your five

apartments, yes, exactly. This is that palace

that you considered it necessary to

publish, and on your website too, by the way,

which was, so to speak, presented as a kind of attack

on me. On one page there are three lies. There,

those are the facts. Let us—this information

was taken from the official website

of the State Duma (the lower house of Russia’s parliament), which states

that you have five

properties in your ownership—one moment—

five

apartments, one service apartment, one

dacha (country house), and one house. Nevertheless, you will not

deny that you have spent your whole life

working in public service. How

did you earn it?

Yevgeny, will you tell me this: tomorrow, are you

ready to present information about Navalny

showing that he really

received a contract from Transneft, because

otherwise this is called blackmail. So, three

facts: first, not his whole life, so that is

a lie. Second, not the owner

of the property you are talking about. By the way,

why do you not sue the State Duma?

Are you disputing that this information is from the website

of the State Duma? No, I am disputing with

you, because you falsified this

information. You perfectly well

understand.

did not earn it all himself, and accordingly did not

buy five apartments. So there are three lies in

one single sheet of paper. So, I am now launching

the SMS vote. Is Alexei Navalny’s position closer to you?

Text 5533 with the letter A if you support Alexei Navalny’s position.

If Yevgeny Fyodorov’s position is closer to you,

text 5533 with the letter B. We have only

one minute for this vote.

One minute, so—

once again: if Navalny’s position is closer to you, if you

support it, text 5533 with the letter A. If

Yevgeny Fyodorov’s position is closer to you, 5533, letter B.

The vote is open. I ask you to participate

actively. You have heard the arguments of

Alexei Navalny and Yevgeny Fyodorov.

Navalny: 5533, letter A. Fyodorov: 5533,

letter B. Alexei, my final question

to conclude our

conversation: will you retract the phrase that you

said in this studio on February 2?

After meeting Yevgeny Fyodorov, after

this broadcast, I will promote

that phrase as strongly as possible, and I think

that many radio listeners who have

different jobs will do the same, because

when we talk about specifics, about

specific crimes, we hear only

something about Americans, the CIA, contracts,

Transneft, and so on—not a single fact,

not a single example. And I think that the power

of United Russia—its influence—if previously it

was built on election fraud,

on paid-for media, control over the media, and

on the passivity of the population, now

that key factor of public passivity

they will no longer find. And therefore this

lawless unchecked power of United Russia

will end fairly soon. If Alexei Navalny’s position is

closer to you, 5533,

letter A. If Yevgeny Fyodorov’s position is

closer to you, 5533, letter B. Yevgeny—

I have no doubt: the person

sitting next to me simply has that kind of job—

to destroy Russia’s spirit, depending

on what is required by competitors from the

unipolar world. I understand them: they

really do have real problems. They

need to keep the world in fear, under control, because

this situation, where one country

consumes 20 to 30 times more than

people in other countries, is obviously not

explained only by the fact that they are better at

working there. And the world is under strain, so

all processes have intensified,

all groups have become more active, and

Mr. Navalny has become active as well,

suddenly appearing here simply for the purpose

of destabilizing the internal order. I

am sure that Russia, just as it miraculously managed

to pull itself out of collapse 10 years ago

with Putin’s arrival, will also be able

to concentrate, to consolidate

around United Russia, to cast out of its mind

and out of its public space people like these—

open enemies whose task

is to destroy our country—and it will move

to a new stage of development. In 5 to 10 years

we will live better, no doubt about it.

No—once again, then, the last 10

seconds. If Alexei

Navalny’s position is closer to you, text 5533, letter A. If

Yevgeny Fyodorov’s position is closer to you, 5533,

letter B. The last 5 seconds, and I will stop

the SMS vote. The picture here is, in general,

already becoming clear, and with that

we will end the broadcast. Gentlemen, in fact I

am grateful to you for coming to us.

In the final analysis—

let us shake hands with each other.

Yes, our listeners and viewers can see that.

Only the countries are different—ah, yes, thank you.

So that is it, I am stopping the SMS vote.

1,354 people voted. 99%

support Navalny’s position, 1%

support Fyodorov’s. That is the result.

1,354 people took part. Thank you all,

and see you tomorrow.