"Fight Club" on the TVC channel

Television has not exactly spoiled us lately with a variety of political talk shows—almost all of them seem to be made from the same template, and their participants drift from channel to channel in virtually unchanged lineups. And yet this genre is one of the highest-rated, not to mention that viewers—that is, we ourselves—have been missing real, unscripted conversation from the other side of the screen. All the more приятно that TVC has decided to launch a new political talk-show project, complete with a twist: instead of filming it in a studio, as usual, they will shoot it in one of Moscow’s clubs—in the thick of the city’s nightlife scene, so to speak.

The pilot episode of the new political talk show titled *Fight Club* was filmed on Monday, February 5, at the Bilingua club.

The first episode of *Fight Club* is titled “Will Russian Nationalism Save or Destroy Russia?” Of course, this choice of topic is no accident. In Russia today, the issue of Russian nationalism ranks a close second in urgency only to the 2007–2008 election cycle, and it is being discussed everywhere—on television and radio, in newspapers and magazines, in internet blogs, and around kitchen tables. The speed with which this explosive issue is gaining momentum in a multiethnic country is enough to alarm any sensible person. It seems that someone is interested in rocking this boat called the Russian Federation, in which we all find ourselves—and, as always, the first to be dragged under sail are the most innocent.

The idea of public political debates featuring popular LiveJournal bloggers is not new: throughout last year, *Debates*, organized by the young civic movement DA, enjoyed enormous success with Moscow’s politically engaged public. Now, evidently, a project tested in the club format has moved to a broader platform—television. Perhaps, remembering the success of *Debates*, the creators of the new TV project decided to preserve the club atmosphere rather than switch to a studio style.

The program has two regular hosts: Dima Gubin, editor-in-chief of *FHM* magazine, and Alexei Navalny, executive secretary of the Yabloko youth group’s Committee for the Defense of Muscovites; each host backs “his” debater.

The two opponents who stepped into the *Fight Club* ring were Konstantin Krylov, who describes himself as a Russian nationalist, and Sergei Minaev, a writer and author—so far—of just one but much-discussed novel, *Dukhless*. The referee was the well-known musician Vyacheslav Petkun, frontman of the band *Tantsy Minus*.

The nationalist Krylov defended the slogan “Russia for Russians,” while the liberal Minaev tried to refute it. Many in the audience were Krylov supporters who also identified themselves as Russian nationalists; they were noisy and tried to grab the microphone before the third round, which under the program’s rules was reserved for audience questions. Minaev’s supporters behaved more quietly and with greater restraint.

Each side had its own “ace up its sleeve” (literally, a “piano in the bushes,” a Russian idiom for a conveniently produced surprise). Minaev and Gubin brought in a Chechen journalist who lives permanently in Moscow and had recently been beaten, along with his son, because of his “non-titular” appearance—that is, because he did not look like a member of the dominant ethnic group. This was a perfectly apt illustration of the situation in which any of Russia’s non-Russian population could find itself. Krylov and Navalny, by contrast, for some reason brought in a striking blonde woman who, together with her parents, had been forced to leave Uzbekistan after the collapse of the USSR—although her story was better suited to illustrating where the slogan “Uzbekistan for Uzbeks” leads, a position that is essentially no different from “Russia for Russians.”

Krylov, an advocate of Russian nationalism, placed the main emphasis on the idea that everything in Russia should belong to Russians: property, land, rights, and benefits. This naturally raised the question of how Krylov and his allies intended to take away the share of property owned by Russian citizens who are not ethnically Russian. But for some reason neither Minaev, nor his host, nor anyone in the audience asked Krylov that question.

The audience questions directed at Minaev were more like taunts in the vein of “takes one to know one” and “suitcase, train station, and then—wherever you like” (an expression meaning “get out of here/go back where you came from”). Krylov, meanwhile, was asked one of the sharpest—if not the most tactful—questions of the evening: “Why is it specifically he who represents the position of Russian nationalists—he is, to put it mildly, not the most appealing representative of the Russian nation?” It must be said that Krylov is indeed an unusual character: he has a peculiar way of conducting a debate, alternately raising his voice to a hysterical falsetto, dropping it to a bass, and inserting long pauses into his speech.

Overall, the debate in *Fight Club* turned out tense and unconvincing. The opponents never managed to substantiate their positions persuasively, so the question “Will Russian nationalism save or destroy Russia?” remained unanswered; or rather, everyone present left with the same opinion they had brought with them to the recording.

As a rule, it is very difficult to argue with Russian nationalists. They usually begin with sweeping declarations such as: all power and property in Russia should belong to Russians—and specifically to ethnic Russians. But as the discussion goes on, they gradually retreat and stop talking about racial purity, instead hinting that they consider anyone here in Russia who speaks Russian to be Russian (for a detailed list, see Pushkin). And by the end they claim that all they ever meant was the fight against corruption. In short, the conversation fizzles out: there is nothing left to argue about, since everyone agrees that being healthy, honest, and wealthy is better than being a sick, poor crook. Our Russian nationalists also seem to have a muddled understanding of religion. They equate being Russian with being Orthodox Christian, and accordingly, anyone non-Russian ends up in their minds either a Muslim or, at best, a Jew.

The most convincing speaker turned out to be Petkun, who was supposed to name the winner. His verdict was as follows: the bout had been inconclusive; Minaev was undoubtedly right, and the victory should have gone to him, but he failed to articulate his position clearly—therefore, a draw.

All that remains for us now is to wait for the program to reach television screens; perhaps the magic of editing will make it more dynamic, more interesting, and more convincing.

The day after the recording, I asked one of the new show’s co-hosts—Alexei Navalny—to answer my questions:

— Alexei, is Fight Club a continuation of Debates in a new format, or is it a completely new project? Is there any fundamental difference between the two? Is Fight Club also connected with the DA movement?

— *Fight Club* is a new project produced by TVC. It was the TVC team that came up with the format and invited me to try myself out as a host. Our regular *Debates* are staying. The fundamental difference is that *Fight Club* is a television show, with all that implies. It is a large-scale production made by a lot of people, including me and Sergei Kazakov, the producer of *Debates*. I am sure the final product will be interesting. At the same time, television imposes a number of obvious limitations, both in format and, unfortunately, in content. I think the existence of political censorship in Russia is obvious to everyone. Of course, it exists at TVC too. Although, in my view, TVC is currently the most politically free of all the federal channels. So far, though, nothing we have proposed has been rejected. I really like the people I’m making *Fight Club* with—they are all entirely reasonable and friendly. Most likely, censorship-related restrictions will affect the guests: obviously, inviting Kasyanov, Rogozin, or Belov will be impossible. For now. But in any case, the very appearance of a political talk show is a very, very positive step. And I’m glad to be part of this project. As for *Debates*, it will continue as before, without any censorship or political correctness.

— Why did you decide to do the show in a club rather than in a studio?

— Initially, the plan was to stage the “fight” in one of the Mosfilm studios. But it is hard to draw an audience there, and we do not want to hire extras for 300 rubles. We need a genuinely politicized audience. Someone who is being paid will sit there and clap when required, but they will not shout out a question or try to snatch the microphone from someone—because they are not being paid for that. We need people in the hall who are genuinely fired up by the topic.

— What determined the choice of topic for the pilot episode? By what criteria were the participants selected?

— The topics were chosen collectively. Everyone brought their own suggestions. We had everything from women in politics to Iran. In fact, we had almost settled on women, but decided that for the pilot it would be easier to find guests for “nationalism.”

We chose the guests right away. Krylov and Minaev are completely different, but they are alike in one respect: they leave no one indifferent—you either adore them or hate them. Even now, after the recording, it is clear that we made the right choice.

— Will this be a regular talk show? When should we expect the pilot episode to air?

— If everything receives final approval, then from the first week of March.

— Will the format remain as we saw it yesterday, or will it change in some way? Will future episodes also be filmed at Bilingua?

— Yes. We were recording the broadcast pilot, and the show will be exactly like that. We will tweak a few things involving the judges and the “witnesses.”

— This is your television debut, isn’t it? What were your personal impressions of the filming?

— Interesting. I did not expect so many people to be involved in making the program. When I arrived at the filming location and saw that about forty people were working on it, my jaw dropped. So far, the hardest part is looking into the camera while delivering the opening remarks. At the moment, my eyes dart around like a crook’s.

— What kind of relationship do you have with your co-host, Dima Gubin?

— We met only after we had been selected as hosts. We have an excellent relationship. Of course, we have different political views and, accordingly, different on-screen personas. Dima is a liberal, and I am a conservative. But for now, we are getting along quite peacefully.

— I think you will be asked this question more than once: how does the Russian nationalist position you voiced on Fight Club square with your membership in the YABLOKO party? Was it merely a host’s mask for the purposes of the show, or are these your genuine views?

— Of course, it would be wrong to say that I fully, 100 percent, support Konstantin Krylov. But this is a television show. It has to be interesting for viewers, and so one has to speak more sharply in order to stir up the audience.

I have repeatedly stated my position on Russian nationalism in public. In brief, it can be described like this: Russian nationalism is, on the whole, a positive thing. Yes, Russians as a people have their own specific problems. And those problems need to be addressed. At the same time, solving them cannot, of course, be connected in any way with discrimination against or restrictions on the rights of other peoples. What people who call themselves “liberals,” but are in fact Soviet Komsomol types with a totalitarian mindset, refuse to understand is precisely this. All consistent liberals share my position. Take Yevgenia Albats, for example. She is a liberal to the core, yet she very clearly distinguishes between nationalism and the promotion of national superiority.

As for YABLOKO, I am a member of that party because, of all the parties in Russia, it has the strongest claim to being called “the party of democrats.” For now. At the same time, my democratic convictions do not in the least oblige me to adopt the left-liberal position held by the party leadership. Today the leadership is one thing, tomorrow it is another. You would exhaust yourself trying to adapt to everyone.

A few days after this interview, it became known that TVC’s management had approved the new program. The talk show *Fight Club* will air on Wednesdays at 11:00 p.m.