Debate: “Youth Defending Russia’s Interests? Elections and ‘Color Revolutions’” — Transcript

Political Debates — II March 28, Tuesday “Club on Brestskaya” Commissars of Nashi VS Youth Yabloko Topic: “Youth Defending Russia’s Interests? Elections and ‘Color’ Revolutions.” Round I Alexei Navalny, moderator: We decided, for the first time, to hold political debates between Yabloko and Nashi. We decided to hold the debate specifically between the organizations, not their leaders. To that end, we asked both sides to put forward their best speakers so they could present their organizations to us today. Our respected jury will help evaluate today’s discussion. Let me introduce them now: Maxim Kononenko, also known as Mr. Parker, who took part in our previous debates; Alexander Plushev, a journalist from Echo of Moscow, who is here today with his charming companion Varya and clearly understands the Internet much better than the rest of us. Yegor Kholmogorov, political commentator for Mayak radio, a man who officially describes himself as a Russian nationalist and an “atomic Orthodox” believer. Maxim Alexandrov, a journalist from the newspaper Reaktsiya, who once won the Parker Prize in a very original way and is very fond of throwing ice cream at his enemies. And Yaroslav Grekov, also known as Moska, leader of the youth movement Democratic Parties, probably the best-known Internet provocateur of this kind, famous for staging actions against practically every political party, from Yabloko to Rodina. Let me say right away that probably half the room would like to beat up some members of the jury, but we assure you we absolutely will not allow that — let’s all get along. Our participants today represent political organizations, so their task is nothing less than defending Russia’s interests. In fact, that is exactly the theme of today’s debate: Youth Defending Russia’s Interests. Let me introduce the organizations taking part in today’s debate: please welcome Ilya Yashin, Youth Yabloko; Fyodor …., commissar of the Nashi movement; Alexander Shurshev, Youth Yabloko — this is the St. Petersburg branch of Youth Yabloko; Yevgeny Ivanov, commissar of the Nashi movement; Irina Vorobyova, Youth Yabloko; Roman Pirma, Nashi movement, head of Nashi’s analytical department. Hello, everyone. Dear friends, to bring our audience up to speed, we ask you now to address three questions very briefly, almost in telegraph style. We’ll ask you three questions now. Decide among yourselves who will represent your organizations in giving very short answers. First question: What are Russia’s interests today? Second question: What exactly does your movement do to defend Russia’s interests? Third question: Why do you believe the opposing side harms Russia’s interests? Nashi movement, please. Yevgeny Ivanov: Hello, let me introduce myself again: my name is Yevgeny, and I represent the Nashi movement. Before we begin the debate, I would like to state our position. As you know, we had doubts about taking part in this event. We came here specifically to explain our position on this issue once and for all, on participating in debates with various organizations, Youth Yabloko in particular. This is the first and last time we will debate in this format and with this kind of organization. Why? Because from now on we will debate only with organizations that, like Nashi, actually shape the political process in Russia, and with organizations that have real backing and real support. For example, when Youth Yabloko has at least ten thousand supporters behind it, then we will debate with them. We are in different weight classes. Thank you. Now, to your question: Russia’s interests lie in becoming one of the world’s leaders in the 21st century. First, that requires preserving national sovereignty; second, modernization; and third, supporting and developing civil society as the foundation of democracy, which at present is also the foundation of our country’s sovereignty. Moderator: Thank you. Youth Yabloko, what are Russia’s interests? Alexander Shurshev: My name is Alexander, and I represent Youth Yabloko. In our view, Russia’s national interests lie in firmly taking the European path of development, in having honest elections in our country, independent justice in our country, and a real civil society in our country — not what our opponents are offering us. Moderator: Thank you. Nashi movement, please tell us specifically what you do to defend Russia’s interests. Colleagues, we agreed that representatives of the organizations would speak in turn. So however you like, but not the same person again. Representative of the Nashi movement: Good afternoon again, everyone. The Nashi movement does some very interesting and, in fact, difficult things, such as building civil society in Russia. To do that, we are creating centers of civil society. For example, such centers exist in Grozny, St. Petersburg, Tambov, and three other cities, as far as I know. In addition, we are fighting fascism in Russia, because we consider it the main threat to the sovereignty of the Russian Federation. Moderator: Thank you. Yabloko, what specifically have you done that is useful in defending Russia’s interests? Irina Vorobyova: Hi. You all know me already, so I won’t introduce myself. Youth Yabloko is engaged, actually — I don’t want to plagiarize — in building that very same civil society Sasha was talking about. As long as we don’t have transparent elections, independent courts, normal media, independent media, then there will be no civil society in our country. And that is why we bring people into the streets, so the public knows what is happening. We are the ones informing young people, we are the ones not afraid to come out, we create homeowners’ associations, we create initiative groups that fight against abuses. We do not create centers with huge sums of money. We do normal, concrete work. Moderator: Thank you. Nashi movement, please tell us why, in your view, these people harm Russia’s interests. Yevgeny Ivanov: So, following what I said earlier, I want to explain why Youth Yabloko in particular harms Russia and why its actions contradict our country’s national and state interests. First, they actively cooperate with fascist-leaning organizations. Second, their goal is to bring back the oligarchic regime of the mid-1990s, when there was no democracy at all in our country. They talk about democracy being rolled back in comparison with that period, arguing that there was democracy then. That is not true. You all know that in the mid-1990s, when the Yabloko party was actively represented in various bodies of power, in regional legislative assemblies and in the State Duma, we had a regime of oligarchic capitalism, when all strategic institutions belonged to particular individuals who did not care about Russia, who took capital abroad. The media also belonged to certain oligarchs and served their interests, helping them squeeze out more property, but in no way defended our country’s interests. Moderator: I see. Thank you. Ilya, the same question: why do they harm Russia’s interests? Ilya Yashin: The Nashi movement is a very vile and cynical project in relation to our generation. Because when these boys and girls are herded together and promised that they will become the new political elite, they are being brazenly lied to. They are being gathered so that in 2008 they can be driven to the Kremlin as cannon fodder and prevent the regime from changing, preserve the status quo. It is a very vile and cynical project. And these boys do not understand at all that when thousands of them, bused in, put on shirts with portraits of the president, it is not only very shameful, it is very dangerous for the country. Because if you wear the portrait of a bureaucrat on your chest — not a rock star, not a footballer, but a bureaucrat — and tell him that he is always right, sooner or later that bureaucrat will believe you, and then neither you guys nor we will be able to approach him with any criticism — and that is very dangerous. Moderator: So please… what you have on your chests. If you want — just a brief reply. Nashi: Guys, what have you actually done? You haven’t done anything concrete. Moderator: In our first round, we will ask the participants to answer my questions, including questions that came in from the Internet. Dear Nashi, you are our fighters against the Orange plague, and just the other day that Orange plague in Belarus was dealt with quite successfully. Briefly: do you support Lukashenko’s actions in that situation, and should the Russian authorities repeat the same actions in Moscow, if necessary? Nashi: That is a fundamental question. We have an ambiguous attitude toward the situation in Belarus. As you know, under Putin there is more democracy in Russia. Under the current president, there is definitely more democracy in Russia. Sociological surveys testify to this. If you compare sociological surveys… Moderator: Under Lukashenko, you mean? Youth Yabloko: Make a note that the level of democracy is apparently measured by sociological surveys. Moderator: Fine, in the same situation in Moscow, in exactly the same situation, should the Russian authorities act in exactly the same way toward demonstrators? Yes or no? Nashi: I think civil society in Russia is more mature. And civil society is not clouded by the ideas Yabloko is spreading. By the way, those ideas— Youth Yabloko: But answer the question. Should OMON riot police be sent against people or not? Yes or no? Shouts from the audience. Nashi: People will come out to defend Russia, definitely. Moderator: Thank you. Youth Yabloko, doesn’t it seem to you that your understanding of Russia’s interests does not really concern Russia itself very much? Yabloko’s election results seem to show that. Of course, one can argue about how fair those elections are. But nevertheless, many people have the impression that you are defending Russia from Russia itself. Yabloko: In conditions where election results are openly falsified, where elections from the very lowest, most local, smallest level to the highest federal level are bought, there is no connection between election results and Yabloko. Moderator: Thank you. Just a brief reply. Irina Vorobyova: As for Orange revolutions, listen, guys, don’t you feel like scapegoats? You were created to keep the “Orange plague” off the barricades. Nobody went to the barricades — so what now? Nashi: Nobody went simply because you already lost the game in 2005. Moderator: Questions to each other in the second round. Moderator: Nashi movement, you often say that one of your priority issues is defending the interests of the Russian population in the Baltics, yet at the same time defending Russians in the Baltics was one of the main issues of the NBP, and in fact they built themselves up on that issue. They were active there, they were imprisoned in the Baltics for defending the interests of the Russian population, and so on. Please answer clearly: do you support the NBP’s actions in defense of Russians in the Baltics? Nashi: We do indeed support the Russian — specifically Russian-speaking — population in the Baltics. What is happening there should not be happening, but we do not support the National Bolsheviks; we consider them a fascist-leaning organization. Shouts in the audience. Moderator: Friends, I call on you to keep order. Let’s do the shouting after the debate. Please continue. Nashi: We do not support the National Bolsheviks. Moderator: But specifically their actions in defense. The same actions you carry out yourselves. You hold the same pickets, for example outside embassies. Do you support those pickets? Are you ready to join them at such pickets? Nashi: We will not attend a single event together with the NBP. We will act independently, and unlike Youth Yabloko, we do not need the help of marginals and fascists from the NBP. Moderator: Thank you. Youth Yabloko, you strongly supported the Orange Revolution in Ukraine, you were on the Maidan. Pora is in many ways your colleagues. You hold events with them. But at the same time, it is no secret that the United States and other Western countries were involved. Do you believe that the actions of the United States and other Western countries in Ukraine, Belarus, and other CIS countries are not beneficial to Russia’s interests? Yabloko: Yes, we do largely believe that the actions of foreign foundations harm national democracy in various countries. But at the same time I want to note that the rhetoric often used by our opponents — that democracy is somehow alien to the Russian mentality — is flawed from the outset, because in February 1917 the Russian people themselves, without a drop of blood, forced the centuries-old autocratic regime to step down. That was when the first Orange Revolution in Russia — and the first in the world — took place. Moderator: Thank you. Yes, please, a reply… Nashi: Our movement is called the Youth Democratic Anti-Fascist Movement Nashi. And we believe that democracy is one of the foundations of sovereignty. We are for democracy, and we are building it. Moderator: So you are the main opponents of the Orange Revolution, which was built on a certain principle: endless rallies that cannot be dispersed, and then the authorities give in. Yet correct me if I’m wrong, but you use the same methods: you got some police chief removed, endless pickets outside the police department, you fought the Perm governor the same way, and so on. In other words, you use the same methods. You go out to an authorized or unauthorized rally and keep it going until the person you dislike leaves. Isn’t there some contradiction here? Nashi: First, we do not always use the methods you are talking about, and most of our events are authorized. As for Perm, that was not an indefinite rally — it ended. It ended with the governor apologizing, and nobody was planning to pitch tents there. As for the police department story, the man beat up a Nashi activist and paid for it. Moderator: Thank you. Youth Yabloko, you have repeatedly said that you want a Maidan on the streets of Moscow and other cities. State it again clearly: do you want an Orange Revolution in Russia now, and are you preparing such a Maidan in Moscow? Please answer in a way that won’t later get anyone prosecuted for calling for arson and so on. Irina Vorobyova: Thank you for the warning. If the authorities falsify elections — yes, we will go out into the streets. Yes, I want the citizens of this country, of this city, to be active and come out into the streets. I do not want a bloody revolution; I cannot say that I am calling for a Maidan. Moderator: Thank you. If these guys try to stage a Maidan, will you follow the advice of your leader Vasily Yakemenko? His phrase is well known: that if a Maidan appeared in the street, he would simply gather people, take plastic seats from Luzhniki Stadium, and use those plastic seats to drive everyone away. So what would your actions be if they tried to stage a Maidan? Nashi: One of our first principles is nonviolence. And second, I think we would occupy the so-called Maidan before anyone else did. Moderator: First come, first served. All right, thank you. A question from the Internet. I’ll ask one question: how do the participants feel about military service? As is well known, military service is an honorable duty and obligation here, so it seems to me this is a very effective way to defend Russia’s interests. What is your attitude toward it, and which of you has served in the army? Nashi: I’m ready to answer that. Military service is indeed necessary, because a strong army is the foundation of sovereignty — that is perfectly clear. Among the people currently in the movement, I know at least one person who works directly with me and has volunteered to go into special forces this fall; I myself hold the rank of lieutenant in the regular armed forces. Moderator: Thank you. The same question, about the army. Ilya Yashin: Russia’s national interests today require a strong, professional contract army, staffed on a contract basis and no other way. Nashi: For example, like in the United States, where there are 6,000 deserters from the army, as you know. Ilya Yashin: Or like in Russia, where conscripts have their legs cut off. Nashi: You’re the ones cutting off their legs. Moderator: I’ll repeat the question Marina Litvinovich asked, a question for the audience: has anyone here served in the army? Are there representatives of youth movements here who have served in the army? One, two, three, four, five, six. So, we can see that politicized youth are not eager to defend Russia’s interests in that way. Moderator: All right, thank you very much. That concludes our first round, and we move on to the second round, where the debate participants ask each other questions. Last time we started with you (to Nashi) — so let’s have your first question (to Yabloko). Round II Irina Vorobyova: Guys, here’s my question. The condition of the debate we all came to was that the organizations would put forward their leaders, their best speakers. I don’t understand why the Nashi movement is sending us staff employees and press secretaries. Are you afraid to put up Yakemenko, a federal-level politician who gets huge amounts of money? Where is your Gorodnichy, your member of the Public Chamber? Where are all your stars? What, afraid to show the goods face to face? Nashi: It’s actually very simple. I’m just as much a commissar of Nashi as many others. Roman is an activist of the movement; that is simply the case. As for why some people are represented and others are not, all complaints should be directed at me, since I agreed to this and I organized Nashi’s participation. You could say it was my decision. Nashi: How is Yabloko, one of the oldest democratic parties in Russia, able to and willing to take part in events and actively cooperate with fascists? Moderator: Please. As we can see, we have an organized flash mob here — don’t use the word “fascists,” because otherwise we’ll be listening to these shouts endlessly. Ilya Yashin: Dear friends, let’s settle this once and for all. The NBP today is a party with 40 political prisoners who ended up behind bars for the slogan: “Respect the Constitution and defend the elderly.” This is a party whose members consciously ended up behind bars for throwing the president’s portrait out of the Ministry of Social Development building. Nashi: You don’t get jailed for that in our country. Ilya Yashin: There is only one serious question about the National Bolsheviks: their symbolism. But in conditions where people are sitting behind bars for the slogan “Defend the Constitution,” that is a question that, for example, Andrei Sakharov or Lyudmila Alexeyeva could ask. But you Kremlin androids have been denied that right. Irina Vorobyova: One second, may I add something. Nashi: When at the beginning of the 20th century a man with a swastika drove a woman with a child into a gas chamber, and now a man with a swastika goes out into the street — it doesn’t matter what he does — and you sing his praises here instead of stopping him. Irina Vorobyova: Let me add this. So, regarding the symbolism, I want to say, so there is no ambiguity: indeed, as long as the National Bolsheviks have that kind of symbolism, we do not want either to unite with them or cooperate with them. At the moment, Yabloko is performing a very real human rights function, because they have 40 political prisoners — these are brave guys, and we will defend them, unlike you. Alexander Shurshev: A question for the Nashi movement: I don’t understand where Nashi gets such questions from, when the head of the St. Petersburg Nashi people — and there is video footage confirming this— Nashi: I ask you not to use the word “Nashists.” We will take that as a direct insult. Alexander Shurshev: So, I don’t understand where such questions come from at all, when the leader of the St. Petersburg Nashi people openly— Nashi: If you say that word once more and use that kind of rhetoric again, we are ending the debate… immediately! Moderator: My friends, let’s calm down. Let’s not impose such harsh conditions. We agreed to debate — let’s see it through to the end. Nashi: If rhetoric that directly insults us continues, we are getting up and leaving. Moderator: Understood. I will stop insulting rhetoric from both sides. Please, your question. Alexander Shurshev: I wasn’t allowed to finish, so I’ll ask the question. In fact, a lot is being written now about the Nashi movement having many problems with the presidential administration. Human rights centers scattered across the country were mentioned here. At this point only the center in Grozny remains operational. Much was said about Nashi’s anti-fascist program. People talked about it, but nobody has seen it. Nashi: Then read it. Alexander Shurshev: Over the past couple of weeks you have closed three regional branches and canceled your hundred-thousand-person march. I don’t understand — maybe, given your difficult situation, you need some kind of help? Nashi: As for the so-called forty political prisoners of the NBP, it’s very simple: there is Limonov, who instead of being in the front ranks sends young people behind bars, knowing they will end up there. He is to blame for that. It has absolutely nothing to do with cries that these are brave people — no. Maybe they are brave, but they were fooled. As for the nonsense from Ilya Barabanov, I have already said that we have no conflict with the administration, that the problems with the hundred-thousand-person event arose only because of security and transportation issues. Youth Yabloko cannot know anything about that, because as far as I know they have never organized actions of more than 25 people without the National Bolsheviks. As for the closure of regional branches, that did not happen, that did not happen. Since this is our internal matter. Things happen within our organization. Branches open and close periodically; that is our internal work, which I do not think particularly concerns anyone else. As for the anti-fascist program, in cities where the Nashi movement exists, friendship lessons are constantly being held; we introduce students and schoolchildren to the cultures of different peoples close to Russia, living in Russia, or coming to Russia to study, and so on. As for everything else, as press secretary I am responsible for our website, and I can say that it receives forty regional news items a day. The movement lives through daily work in all the areas we have declared, and I think the complaints on this point are unfounded. Everything is only just beginning. Moderator: All right. A question! A question for Youth Yabloko. Nashi: As is well known, you follow an ideology that is unpopular, to put it mildly. We have the three most unpopular politicians — I may be mistaken — Chubais, Khakamada, and Yavlinsky. How does it feel to be political bankrupts? Isn’t it time to create something new? Ilya Yashin: Quoting one respected person, I’ll answer you this way, friends: United Russia and its allies may have more than 50% of the voters, we have 10–15%, but your 50% will not be able to do for our country anything that our 15% can. Nashi: A brief reply. You know, I do not consider it acceptable to regard any citizens of one’s country as cattle, whatever they may be, whatever kind of people live here — they are what they are. We have no other people. If a person sitting here wants ever to engage in politics at a more serious level, if he wants to become someone and govern our country, he must understand that 15%, 20% — these are all citizens of our country, and 50% all the more so. Democracy is built on the principle of the majority. Moderator: That was a reply. That’s it, thank you. We’re wrapping up. Nashi: Why does democracy exist in Russia? Because both United Russia and Putin — however much all of you here may want otherwise, however much you may shout, whatever you may say — are supported by the majority. And as long as that foundation exists, we have the opportunity to build a state. A free democratic state. Moreover, what I want to tell you— From the audience (or Irina Vorobyova): A brazen lie! Nashi: It is not a brazen lie — that’s one. And second, the dogs bark, but the caravan moves on. Nothing can be done about it. Irina Vorobyova: I just wanted to point out that none of the three of us here has used the word “cattle” from the very beginning, unlike you. Moderator: All right, my friends, let’s stop there. Ira, a question for the Nashi movement. Or one of you, however you like. Ilya Yashin: Dear friends, please listen carefully, this will take literally five seconds. Thank you. Vasily Yakemenko, exactly a year ago at a meeting with future commissars of the Nashi movement: “If I had needed to resolve the issue on the Maidan, given the general lack of will, I would have contacted my colleagues from the Spartak fan movement. They would have gathered 5,000 of their supporters right there with those plastic stadium seats that get smashed in the stands, and we would have loaded them into five train cars, brought them to Kyiv, and with those chairs they would have driven off those who came out onto the Maidan.” Literally a few months later, the NBP bunker was stormed by shaven-headed thugs. A month later the action was repeated. On August 30 of last year, shaven-headed thugs carried out a pogrom at the city committee of the Communist Party. Attacks on left-wing activists continued systematically throughout last year. Guys, the Maidan is still a long way off — didn’t you grab the chairs a bit early? Nashi: First, if by shaven-headed thugs you mean members of the Nashi movement, then we demand either an immediate apology or immediate proof that this was the case. Otherwise, this is simply a brazen lie. Because that never happened! Yabloko: That is a quote from Mr. Yakemenko, your leader said it personally. Nashi: The exact quote is that if it had been necessary to resolve the issue on the Maidan… Once again: either here and now Ilya Yashin presents proof that members of the Nashi movement were involved in attacks and violent actions, and then we will comment on it, or else it is all nonsense. Moderator: Ilya, do you have the video recording with you? Ilya Yashin: No. Moderator: All right. Then let’s not pursue this topic further. We conclude this round with your (to Nashi) question to Yabloko. Nashi: I’ve already heard this thing about 15%. I strongly doubt it. I’d like to ask, guys, why is it that nobody supports you? Have you ever thought about that? From the audience: We support them! Nashi: No, I understand that perhaps the entire Youth Yabloko is gathered here in the hall together with SPS and Oborona. I’m not disputing that. No questions there! Guys, it’s your business what beliefs you profess. I’m just curious. Why have I never seen you hold a rally with more than 25 people? Irina Vorobyova: You know, if I were — no, maybe not me. But take your average student who is offered a pager, a mobile phone, trips to the swimming pool, and so on — oh guys, there would be so many of them, you wouldn’t believe it! Nashi: I’m not asking about that… I won’t comment on your remark about mobile phones. You complain that you have no money. You have none because nobody wants to give you any. You have nothing to offer. Even Berezovsky doesn’t believe in you. You should have asked him! Nobody believes in you! Simply because you have nothing to offer! You are bankrupts. Yabloko: Instead of money, you need brains — and that’s what we’re rich in. Moderator: We move on to the third round of the debate, where questions will be asked by our respected jury. Round III Yegor Kholmogorov: A question for Ilya Yashin of Youth Yabloko, who gave the wonderful example of an authentic Russian Maidan — namely February 1917, when supposedly crowds of our people spontaneously rose up and threw off the centuries-old yoke of autocracy. Let us recall how British intelligence killed Rasputin, how the British Embassy cobbled together a coalition of anti-monarchist forces, how generals commanding the fronts during the war formed a military conspiracy to overthrow the emperor. The so-called popular demonstrations were a minor, superficial part of that whole revolution. Tell me, do you want the same thing in Russia now? Do you want a military conspiracy? Do you want murders carried out by foreign intelligence services? Do you want the activity of British embassies? Is that what you want? Ilya Yashin: A significant number of those so-called historical facts that were mentioned have very little to do with reality. I will answer what we really want: we want citizens in our country to control their state, not the other way around. We want the state to exist for the citizens. If that requires going out into the streets, we will do it; if it can be avoided, then so be it. Nashi: You know, the truly democratic institution is elections. And when the will of the crowd is placed above the will of the people as expressed in elections, that is when an illegal, unconstitutional coup takes place. Yaroslav Grekov: I have a question for Nashi. Contrary to expectations, I want to support the Yabloko people. It is very well known what Nashi has done against fascists — what has Nashi done for democracy? Nashi: Despite the fact that some comrades think the civil society we are building is not functioning, we continue this process, and it is functioning; we have reports on this that we are ready to present at any moment. As for elections as a democratic procedure, we said that we have the “Civic Control” program — observers at elections who monitor the expression of the people’s will. If you recall the Moscow City Duma elections, all the exit polls were based on the surveys conducted by the Nashi movement at the exits of polling stations. And in principle, it should be noted that nobody else needed this. Moderator: Thank you. Yaroslav Grekov: You framed that a bit incorrectly. You heavily publicize your actions against fascism, but as for actions to defend democracy… I heard nothing. A question for Yabloko. I don’t like that you call NBP prisoners political prisoners. It seems to me that this is a substitution of terms, and I’ll explain why. It seems to me it’s all about bureaucracy. Our laws are such that when prosecutors and judges hear something about politics, they try to give longer sentences, while in fact it is petty hooliganism. It seems to me this is a wrongly classified crime, not a political prisoner. Irina Vorobyova: When people get five years for a nonviolent action, while a corrupt official gets a suspended sentence, then what other word can you use for a National Bolshevik in prison? Maxim Alexandrov: We’re talking about Russia’s interests. A question for the Nashi movement. If each of the three people sitting here were offered a choice between one million dollars — or euros, if you prefer — and the abstract defense of Russia’s interests in some region, what would you choose? Let each of the three answer. Nashi: I am deeply convinced that money does not play an important role in a person’s life, so for me the opportunity to participate in one or another historical process is far more valuable than any material embodiment. The very framing of the question is strange: what if this, what if that. What if under threat of death — what would you choose then? A mosque or death? I think such questions… Before joining the Nashi movement, I earned good money. Now I do not have as much time to devote to that, because it is very important for me to apply my own efforts to doing something for my country, something important, so that it becomes great. For me, work in the Nashi movement is largely social activity. I earn money, and what I earn is enough for me; I do not need much. The interests of the country come first for me. Maxim Alexandrov: A question for Yabloko. If in 2012 a referendum is held, and without any falsification the lion’s share of the population — say, 51% — votes to establish a monarchy, will you then lead people to the Maidan? Ilya Yashin: We would, of course, accept that position, but we would remain in opposition to that decision. Maxim Alexandrov: Would you bring people out onto the Maidan if you were sure there had been no falsification? Ilya Yashin: If we were sure, then of course we would not. Maxim Kononenko: My first question is for the venue administration: could someone bring us beer here or call a waitress? My first question for Youth Yabloko: what do your street actions consist of? In newspapers, on the radio — what else do you do? Alexander Shurshev: In addition to street actions, we monitor all elections held in our regions and neighboring ones, we travel to neighboring regions and take part in those elections. As Ira Vorobyova already said, from the grassroots level upward we create homeowners’ associations — a very important area of our activity. Yes, it is political work, everyday political work. In addition, we have a number of educational projects; in each region they are different. I can only speak about the St. Petersburg projects, so I don’t think that will interest you. In particular, last year we managed to carry out a major campaign under which discounted transit passes can be used by all students, not only those in state-funded places but also fee-paying students. That is a major achievement for us. Maxim Kononenko: A question for the Nashi movement: do you have a plan of action after 2008? Nashi: I think that after 2008 we will continue doing what we are doing now — that is, education, defending our sovereignty, participating in various elections. We still have a great deal of work ahead of us, in fact. Ilya Yashin: …To send people behind bars, you need charisma. We don’t have people like that. Yegor Kholmogorov: The question is actually very simple and in the same vein as Maxim Kononenko’s. I understand perfectly well that Nashi is a certain political project, that everything is clear up to 2008, and after 2008 there is no clarity. My question is not so much to you as representatives of the movement, but to you as people, all three of you. You say: “We want to do something for Russia.” That formula is almost as tiresome as the formula: “I believe there is something in heaven.” Can each of you name three things you would like to do for Russia? Personally and nationally: go into space, build a highway between Kamchatka and Chukotka — anything at all, just three things. Moderator: Excellent question. Three points, briefly and concretely. Yevgeny Ivanov: As for me — you quoted me, right? What I meant was that when I joined the Nashi movement, I wanted to work in a patriotic organization. Thanks to being in Nashi, I now have a real opportunity to do good for Russia. The opportunity to help preserve national sovereignty, to develop civil society. And ultimately we are preparing a national elite that will not seek to leave for the West. Personally, I do a lot for that: I study, I get an education so that I can become an effective specialist. I am a patriot. Accordingly, when I occupy some particular position, I will be able to do a great deal for my country’s benefit. It is enough simply to work properly. Yegor Kholmogorov: What dream does the future national elite have? For example, I have a dream in two parts: to see ten Russian aircraft carriers in my lifetime, and for Moscow to have one church for every 10,000 residents. I have two concrete dreams I want to see fulfilled. Yevgeny Ivanov: If you put the question that way, then it’s very simple. Personally, I have a dream: a separate apartment for every young family. Nashi: I would like the whole world to use rubles; I would like to have at least four children in my family and be able to raise them calmly; I would like to have that opportunity — and for that it is absolutely not necessary to be some kind of state figure. And a dream that will probably never come true — I myself would like, well, it’s crazy, to visit Mars. Nashi: For Russia to be No. 1 in the world in 25 years. Moderator: We move on to the next round, and now we can take questions from the audience for our participants. Please formulate your questions briefly. Round IV Question: Hello, my name is Yura, and my question is for both sides. First of all, this whole debate is really a farce… Moderator: Excuse me, please. Your questions? Question (Yura): The question is for both sides at once. What constructive thing can you offer me as a citizen of Russia? What can Youth Yabloko offer, having simply discredited the very concept of democrats? What can the Nashi movement offer, which is obviously a predictable youth movement that will fall apart as soon as Putin leaves? As soon as he leaves, Nashi will disappear too — that’s obvious! The jury! Kholmogorov, Plushev, all these people — what can you offer me, why did I come here?!! Moderator: That question is apparently for me, but I’m not going to answer it. All right, thank you. Briefly, what can you offer this angry comrade? Ilya Yashin: First, we suggest you have a drink and calm down. Second, we want to offer you a normal state, one that is comfortable for living, for the lives of reasonable people. Nashi: Young man, what’s your name? Yura: Yura. Nashi: I think we could offer you a very simple thing: you need to decide for yourself what you want from life, and then come to us with concrete proposals. From the audience: I want you not to exist. Moderator: Thank you. The debate will end soon and everyone will go home. Nashi: And what can you do when you don’t know what you want?! What other options do you have?! Moderator: All right, thank you. Next question. Yes, you, then you, then you. Alexander: I want to ask a question of the Nashi movement. From the audience: This is a provocation! Moderator: More than half the room are provocateurs. Everybody knows that, it’s fine. Alexander: You said that Putin and United Russia are supported by the majority, but you also said something very correct: that the only true measure is elections. I do not think our elections are very honest, but if we look at the results, we see that with turnout at 55%, 37% voted for United Russia — that means 17% of the entire population of Russia. Putin got 71% out of 64% turnout — that is 45% of the total population. Doesn’t it seem to you that electoral majorities are achieved by instilling in the real majority, through the actions of the authorities, an aversion to politics and a belief that nothing can be changed? Nashi: How the American people must hate their government. There is a passive electorate — you can’t drag it out. You can’t explain it all just as apathy, guys. Dmitry Yakubenko: A question for Nashi. First, you said you are for democracy, but at the same time you do not want to debate Yabloko in the future. Then whom do you want to debate? And a second question for Yabloko: if you debate Nashi, would you agree to have a moderator who is not from Yabloko? Moderator: Well, I don’t know. I think it would still be hard to accuse me of favoring one side. Nashi: I stated this at the very beginning. We will debate those political forces that really shape the public process, as Nashi does. Moderator: Name them! If we want to invite you again. For example, Yakemenko refused. That girl of yours from the Public Chamber refused. Though of course we gave you the opportunity to nominate anyone you wanted. Whom should we invite so that you will come next time? At least tell the organizers of the debate. Nashi: We are ready to debate the adult Communist Party, the adult Yabloko party, and United Russia. And you know, Youth Yabloko, I have the impression they are all gathered here. Ilya Yashin: We are always ready to debate anyone at all except outright fascists, so we will always be happy to have a good, friendly political brawl with Nashi. Moderator: Thank you! Question! Fyodor Biryukov: I have a question for Yabloko: you participate in elections normally, and the results are dismal, as is well known. Why, being democrats, do you deny our people the right they are asserting — namely, to live without liberals? Irina Vorobyova: Excuse me, Fyodor, are you the representative of the people who want to live without liberals? And aren’t you the representative of the very party that declared that if Rodina were removed from the ballot, you would stage a Maidan? You came out onto the square, saw three buses of OMON riot police, and simply left. Ilya Yashin: Let’s just answer plainly: yes, we deny you the right to live without liberals! That’s all. Question: I worked on regional elections in Tambov, and there the Nashi movement was simply bought off through administrative resources. I worked in the regional administration; they invited the Nashi movement over, had a little talk “about life.” They said: guys, of course we cooperate with you. And the Nashi movement worked for Rodina in the city elections. Excuse me, but that’s a fact. Tell me, what is V. Putin doing wrong in your view? What do you disagree with? And— Question for Yabloko: who finances you? Nashi: As for the Tambov elections, I cannot comment on the situation, I was not there. We can clarify it if you want; we’ll look into that question. As for Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin, of course we would like the things he declares, all those processes, to move faster in reality. That is why we exist, that is why we work. Nashi: Personally, I disagree with the president in saying that defeatist attitudes among the elite have been overcome. From the audience: He disagrees with the president! What’s your last name? Party card on the table! Ilya Yashin: Let’s speak with complete frankness: Youth Yabloko’s budget in Moscow is about three thousand dollars a month. Of those $3,000, we pay $2,300 for renting headquarters… From the audience: And for drugs? Ilya Yashin: Some of the money goes to the Internet and various small technical expenses. To raise $3,000 a month, every month we meet with around 30 to 35 people involved in small and medium-sized business. It is very difficult. Far from all of those 30 people give us any money. It is rather hard to expect people to enthusiastically finance an opposition organization when entrepreneurs end up behind bars simply for supporting opposition ideas. Moderator: Thank you. One second. A brief question on this topic. Question: Ilya, the Russian Children’s Clinical Hospital is having funding problems right now, and it needs about $3,000 worth of medicine. Are you ready to give up your headquarters on Novy Arbat so those children can get medicine? From the audience: And admit you’re bankrupt! Ilya Yashin: We are not ready to admit we are bankrupt, but we are ready to discuss taking part in financing that effort. Question: A question for both organizations, because there is much more in common between you than there is that separates you. Tell me, both your organizations are in one way or another geared toward 2008. Regardless of how the situation is resolved, aren’t you afraid that by 2008 you will turn into twenty-five-year-old boys who can’t do a damn thing except youth politics — and after 2008 nobody will give a damn about youth politics? Yabloko: Youth Yabloko is certainly not geared specifically toward 2008, if only because of how many years we have already existed. We have existed for 10 years already. Nashi: We have already answered about 2008. We will continue our activities; they are not going to be curtailed. Proof of that is our extensive educational programs, which are designed for a much longer period. Mikhail Kriga: A question for the Nashi movement: I really liked how you began the discussion — look how many people are behind us, and who is behind you? It’s like a rich kept woman with a generous sugar daddy lecturing her poor but honest friend on how to live: take everything you can from him. My question is: if your children ask what, besides empty demagoguery about “building civil society,” you can actually offer — other than “we love Putin” — what will you say? Nashi: The topic of money and financing has simply become exhausting. Yes, we have good financing, yes, it is very large, and we know better than you how much money we have; we have clear accounting. Question: Can you disclose that accounting? Nashi: No, that is closed information. To our Yabloko politicians we want to say that we are ready to cooperate with organizations that pursue the right policies and activities. And we are now compiling a list of such organizations. And if you behave well, you may have a chance of making it onto that list. Sergei: A question for the Nashi movement: when introducing yourselves, you said you want Russia to become a leader in the 21st century. What do you mean by that? Nashi: We are practically in the center of the continent, in the center of the world, we are attractive in cultural terms. We have a stock of resources that no one else in the world has. We need to make maximum use of everything we have. If we can do that, if we can deal with infrastructure, if we can do many different things in reality, then in any case we will be a leader. At any rate, it is worth striving for that; otherwise there is no point in existing. The criteria are: a powerful modern economy, Russia among the top five states making decisions on world politics, and third, a high degree of innovation and high technology produced by Russia itself and through which it leads. Vladimir: Yabloko, what is your view of Russia’s path of development? A bit philosophically, maybe not for you, but still. Yabloko: For the third time today, I repeat: the European path of development. From the audience: Meaning pro-Western? Yabloko: Yes. Ivan, former member of the Nashi movement: First question for Ilya Yashin. We’ve had all these calculations here: different percentages, different cities, how many people took part and when, and so on. The question is: doesn’t it seem to you that you are supported by practically zero percent of Russia’s population? Don’t you think your ideology has no future? Second: Nashi movement, doesn’t it seem to you that your movement is non-ideological? You talk more about modernization of the country, but throughout this debate, no matter how many questions you were asked, you did not say one concrete thing about what will be built, what banks will be opened, what airports will be created, and so on. Yabloko: We do not believe that we are supported by 0% of the country’s population. Nashi: We’ll provide you with a list of banks. Question: Ira Vorobyova, tell us, what program do you have and what are you going to do in the field of secondary school education? Irina Vorobyova: You know, I quite obviously finished secondary school already. I can say that the main problem in schools is that teachers are paid next to nothing. Budget money needs to be allocated to pay teachers properly. Nashi: We believe schoolchildren need to be worked with, and teachers need to be paid more. And we are doing that. We have conducted 2,000 friendship lessons — that is, we are really overcoming xenophobic attitudes. That is what we bring. Not your defeatist mood and pseudo-liberal slogans with nothing behind them. Your freedom means surrendering the country. We want schoolchildren, leaving the classroom healthy and going on to university, to be focused not on leaving for abroad, not on getting a Green Card, but on working here, in Russia. Ilya Yashin: We believe that the financial stream feeding Nashi should be cut off and redirected to schools first of all. Question from the Communist Party: Last year we were marching to the city committee of the Communist Party, my friends were beaten, beaten by people with bats. Question: did those people have anything to do with the Nashi movement or not? Nashi: No, they did not. Ovsyannikov, Da movement: Nashi, if memory serves, you named Youth Yabloko among fascist organizations. Do you also include the Movement Against Illegal Immigration and Russian civic movements in that category? Nashi: The Movement Against Illegal Immigration has changed its rhetoric recently. Nevertheless, what it said before, and the fact that its representatives took part in other organizations, certainly has that basis and in fact amounts to inciting national and racial hatred. Moderator: Which of those organizations would you be ready to take part in an event with right now: the Russian Civic Union or the Movement Against Illegal Immigration? Nashi: Neither one nor the other. Krylov: Why does the Nashi movement call itself a civic movement? Nashi exists on state funds; its money is allocated either from the treasury or from people controlled by the Kremlin. Nashi enjoys openly advertised support from the administration. It knows that whatever it does, including the use of force, it will always go unpunished. Nashi knows that it… Meanwhile, whatever people may say about it, the Yabloko movement is in fact civic. Why does Nashi call itself civic when it represents no one except the will of the administration and the people it has bought off? Why does Nashi debate Yabloko from a position of power, boorishly boasting of its income, its capabilities, its force resources? Nashi: That is not true. The Nashi movement is not financed from the budget. Second, we do not do dirty work. What do you call dirty work — giving friendship lessons, or building centers of civil society? Moderator: How do you have the right to call yourselves a civic movement when in fact you represent the authorities? Nashi: We do not hide the fact that the president supports us, and in my opinion that is something to be proud of. In any society, in any state, meeting with the president is the highest recognition of a person’s activity, of a patriot’s activity. The president does not want to meet with the Yabloko people because they do nothing, while he meets with us because we do things important for the state and the people. And we have a great many such concrete deeds. Moderator: That’s all. Thank you very much. On those words, we will conclude. Let’s applaud our participants. And now let us move on to the exciting procedure of summing up the results. We have our wonderful LiveJournal jury. As you know, the voting is done in stages: the jury vote, the audience vote, and the vote on the website after the transcript is posted. Please, LiveJournal jury, I ask you to make up your minds. A reminder: we are not scoring based on which side you support; we are trying to score participation in the debate — who was more truthful and more convincing. Please, respected members of the jury, raise your hands if you think Youth Yabloko won. Three. Raise your hands if you think Nashi won. One. Who did not vote? Jury member: Wait. Can I vote against everyone, for the moderator? Moderator: Of course you can! Jury member: It’s just that, in my opinion, both sides performed terribly. Moderator: All right, thank you very much. So, the jury has awarded the victory to Youth Yabloko, and we congratulate them. Members of the jury, tell us why you gave your preference to one side or the other. Yaroslav Grekov: I just heard that the construction of Nashi’s Civic Centers ended because Nashi ran out of Lego — we were just talking about new technologies, speaking of technology. Moderator: Yegor Kholmogorov, did you vote for Nashi? Yegor Kholmogorov: Absolutely. And for one simple reason: today’s debate was organized solely to mock these miserable, pathetic people who came from the Kremlin on Kremlin money. Throughout the debate, I heard a frenzied, screeching, hysterical cesspool shouting every kind of nonsense against the Nashi movement. Guys, I will never be with you, with this so-called intelligentsia crowd that imagines itself above the common rabble, and which in fact is rabble in the exact meaning of the word. No to fascists 13, no to fascists 14. Maksim Alexandrov: Excuse me, but it seemed to me that the people present here especially had very little to say. I don’t know why Nashi put forward not their best speakers. Yabloko sent its most well-known people. I would also have voted for Yabloko if Ilya hadn’t been shouting so loudly. My ears were ringing when he yelled into the microphone. Moderator: All right, that was Maksim Alexandrov. Maksim Kononenko, I think Youth Yabloko is surprised by your vote. Maksim Kononenko: Oh yes. I was also surprised by Kashin’s vote at the previous debate. Even though everyone was throwing around completely vague and abstract notions like “the European path of development,” “building civil society,” and “fighting fascism” — all of that is complete nonsense that has absolutely no meaning or significance. I should note that Yabloko was sincere. As for Nashi, I had the feeling they were on the defensive the whole time and afraid to say what they really wanted to say. Why don’t you say it plainly: we are not a political organization, we are a business school, an enterprise where people are trained in management and then go on to work as officials — that is a perfectly normal goal. A business school is needed, a Komsomol (the Soviet-era Communist youth league) is needed. Why are you afraid to admit it? Instead, you play at being a political organization, which you are not. That is why I gave my vote to Youth Yabloko, despite the fact that I am at war with it and will keep fighting it until I destroy it. Moderator: Alexander Plushev voted for Youth Yabloko — why? Alexander Plushev: If we weren’t choosing between Youth Yabloko and the Nashi movement — that is, if the lineup of participants had been different — I would have voted differently. It’s just that Yabloko was less afraid of discussion, and we were evaluating how they debated, not how the audience reacted, as one of the jury members demonstrated here, and not the purpose for which the debate was organized. Youth Yabloko was less afraid of debate; it engaged in sharp arguments and discussions. That’s all. Moderator: We now move to the audience vote. Those who have cards, raise your cards; those who do not have cards, raise your hands. Raise your hands and cards if you think Youth Yabloko won. Hold them up. Our assistant will count everything now. Ilya Yashin: And you say no one votes for us. From the audience: Why didn’t Nashi bring a support group on a bus? Moderator: Those who think Nashi won. Hold them up. Youth Yabloko won.