Morning Briefing broadcast from June 22, 2020. Navalny on the amendments and the new Constitution

9 hours and 34 minutes. Radio station “Echo of Moscow.” Maksim Kurnikov, Irina Babloyan. Alexei Navalny is joining us. Politician. Good morning, Alexei!

Good morning!

So, here’s the thing, have you already bought it, Alexei Anatolyevich, the new Constitution?

Yes, I bought it quite a while ago, familiarized myself with it, looked through everything.

Anything you liked? That’s right! Overall, of course… And that part, well done!

Even at the moment when I was going to buy it, I already disliked it very much. So no, don’t try to persuade me, I’m not going anyway.

If we talk about what comes next, it’s clear — we’ll talk about this now — that there are different opinions on how one should behave and so on, but if we look a week ahead, a month ahead, a year ahead, how are you going to relate to it? It’s obvious they’ll adopt it, right?

I’m not going to change my attitude. It’s clear that they will adopt it, since on their side there are simply corrupt courts and police. But the procedure itself is such that all of this is absolutely illegal. And as soon as in Russia — and I am sure that sooner or later some kind of government will come that observes the law at least a little — of course, this procedure will be canceled even automatically. There will be no need for a very long court battle or to hold a new referendum to cancel all this. All of it is legally null and void, and any person who has completed even one year of law school will, of course, agree with this.

Alexei, I didn’t complete even one year of law school, so forgive me, maybe the questions will be stupid.

Go ahead.

You sue regularly, you will be there… in the ECHR. And there will be some articles that will already have been changed. Which articles will you refer to — the already amended ones? That means de facto you will be recognizing it.

What does it mean, de facto recognizing it? Inside this constitution itself there is nothing that will matter to an ordinary citizen except for that very amendment for the sake of which all this is being done, which will allow Putin to run again. Everything else will in no way change everyday life. In that sense, we now have many bad laws, many good laws. And people ignore both bad and good laws, because decisions in political cases are simply made as they please. Everything else… When you are in court with your neighbor at the dacha because he, I don’t know, cut down some tree, the Constitution will not affect that in any way and will have no influence on it. And it will not affect most other everyday disputes in any way either.

A. Navalny: Inside this constitution itself there is nothing that will matter to an ordinary citizen

I’ll try to argue with you, Alexei, because after all some indexation provisions are fixed there. You, for example, are one of the most ardent supporters, I would even say, of implementation, of compliance with Putin’s May decrees. Probably no one reports violations on this issue as often as you do. And will you also fight over indexation under this constitution?

Thank you very much, Maksim, for noticing that. It’s very pleasant for me, because I really am, as you said, one of the ardent fighters, yes. But this amendment point makes no sense at all, because indexation is already provided for now, and now they are not carrying it out, brazenly violating current legislation. Therefore, the fact that they wrote something into the Constitution will change absolutely nothing. That is, this is exactly a typical amendment made precisely so that when you say: “Guys, don’t go vote. This is Putin’s reset,” the television can object to you: “Well, if you vote against it and don’t go, that means you don’t support indexation.” This is an absolutely deceptive clause. It guarantees absolutely nothing. And here one hundred percent nothing will change.

I’ll return, literally for just a minute, probably, to the debate you had with Maxim Katz. About the positions, probably, in principle, everything is clear. They kept asking Maxim: “Well, people will go, vote — they’ll draw the necessary numbers anyway… that part is clear. And what happens next?” And I want to ask you: what happens next? Your position with the boycott is clear. Are some protest actions possible or what?

My position is not about a boycott. My position is about non-recognition. And I think that the dispute “boycott or vote against” does not make much sense, because the procedure itself is arranged in such a way that voting will go on for 7 days, and there are no observers there. Today we see notices hanging everywhere that they are simply recruiting people for 300 rubles an hour to walk around the streets and hand out ballots. And in that sense it is absolutely obvious that there can be no control there whatsoever. And the value of your vote in this voting has no significance at all. That is my position. As for protest actions and protests in general against all of this, I am sure that they will happen, they will expand. Right now, of course, the key political factor is simply the epidemic. And this voting during an epidemic outrages me. And, of course, this is a significant legal and factual restriction on holding mass events. But I have not the slightest doubt that, of course, Vladimir Putin’s continued rule and his desire to remain in power will, of course, lead to an increase in protest actions.

Excuse me, but that turns out to be fighting after the fact… When do you imagine these protest actions, if the epidemic, apparently, is not going to end in the coming weeks? The Constitution will already have been adopted — and then what?..

There is no fight happening right now. In fact, this is one of the key mistakes. What will start on June 25 and end on July 1 is just a game, a kind of illusion of voting that Putin is creating so that on July 1 he can say that “that’s it, I am a lifelong tsar.” But let’s be honest: both you and every person listening to this, every radio listener, knew perfectly well that Putin wants lifelong presidency for himself. That is why we protested before this, and we held, in particular, the nationwide action “He Is Not Our Tsar.” We said that we oppose Putin’s lifelong presidency. And we will continue to oppose it. And, you know, the fact that on July 1 or July 2 it did not work out to do something because of the epidemic changes nothing. It is rather an excuse for people who do not want to do anything.

Alexei, you say this is not a fight, there is no fight, but this is rather a fight you avoided for tactical reasons, possibly. And rightly so. But then what kind of fight is it…?

Stop-stop-stop! How exactly did I avoid it, Maksim? A serious accusation.

Look, they offer you a fight over the vote. You say: “The conditions there are such that it is impossible to fight honestly. I’m not fighting here, I’m simply ignoring it, I do not recognize it.”

Let’s note an important point: what they are offering us on July 1 is not a fight at all. If we are going to use the terminology of fight or no fight — that’s not a fight. In September there will be elections in different regions, in my opinion even in your native Bashkiria. And you know that elections in Bashkiria are not just a fight, it’s when they tie your hands and feet and beat you over the head with a bat.

It varies, Alexei. Please don’t stigmatize my native Bashkortostan. Things do vary there.

But even in that kind of procedure one can participate, because there are at least some observers there, at least some formal process. Here they are not even offering us any kind of fight. Here they are offering us more like a TV show or a quiz. A quiz in the literal sense of the word.

Let’s call it wrestling, American-style.

It doesn’t even look like wrestling, because in wrestling you see two painted-up healthy men jumping around the ring. Here they simply show us a box that announces the results. Nothing more. Therefore this voting has not the slightest significance and, generally speaking, is not voting.

So, then, what is the ближайшая fight?

A. Navalny: My position is not about a boycott. My position is about non-recognition

The elections, of course, in September. Real elections in September. 31 regions. There are 6 cities with over a million residents there. These are real, genuine elections where one can and must strike blows at both Putin and United Russia. And one needs to participate in such elections. And we are participating in them right now and preparing our candidates, and supporting other candidates. That is an important thing. Besides, you understand, rallies, protest activity always and everywhere. We must always participate in this and campaign against Putin and his regime. This is a daily task for every person. Therefore, as Maxim Gorky said, there is always room in life for heroism. If you want to do something against this regime, you can do it right now. This voting has nothing to do with real activity.

Alexei, will the fight for the State Duma happen this year, according to your forecasts, your feelings, and your preparations?

Let’s put it this way, we proceed from the assumption that this may happen at some point. We see some chaotic actions, when Putin scheduled this vote, when it seemed that United Russia had passed a resolution appointing early elections to the State Duma. Then Putin came to the State Duma and canceled the elections, but for some reason scheduled this referendum of his. And we could see from United Russia members’ faces that even they do not understand what is happening. We proceed from the main thing: the government’s ratings are falling. It is flailing around. They do not know what to do. I do not rule out that they may announce elections in December, for example. And we must be ready for that. And if there is such a fight, then we must do everything to defeat United Russia.

Unfortunately, you do not have an officially registered party. But you surely have a Plan B. What is it?

Single-member district candidates, of course.

You won’t try to get in through some parties that are, one way or another, close or at least not hostile to your candidates?

All the so-called systemic parties that will be allowed to participate in the voting are, of course, under the control of United Russia. And in that sense trying to promote some particular party makes little sense. We will help all parties again in accordance with the formula “Vote for any party except United Russia.” Yes, all the others there are not very good either, but they are better than United Russia, because the goal is to destroy United Russia’s monopoly. But the Duma is formed, as we remember, at least for now: half the seats are party lists; half are simply single-member district candidates, that is, where you vote for a surname. That, in fact, is the main fight.

So you want to repeat the Moscow City Duma result in the State Duma elections?

We want to do much better.

What is your goal?

The point, of course, is this: to use the “Smart Voting” strategy, which has proven its very high effectiveness. The Moscow City Duma is now such a legislative assembly within the country where there is the largest and truly the largest opposition faction, consisting of excellent deputies. And relying on this successful experience, we want to convince everyone around us to act in this way, within the framework of such tactics, in order to beat United Russia members.

Well, you say successful experience. But as for Shaposhnikov, in general, the commission ended in nothing.

First of all, there has not yet been a commission, and secondly, it did not end in nothing. There was at least a commission there. It is absolutely unprecedented when more than 20% of our legislative body spoke in favor of removing the United Russia speaker. And that investigation into him is continuing now, regarding the fact that he did not declare his billion rubles.

Do you have any illusions? That’s not quite how I should phrase it — do you have hopes that…?

I have an absolutely sober calculation that those 20% of deputies who signed the demand for resignation are supported by an even larger number of deputies who, let’s say, are keeping their opinions to themselves, and they will continue putting pressure on the speaker of the Moscow City Duma. And, most importantly, they will interact with the voters. That is, we see a huge number of people who support a substantial number of deputies. This is real politics, and in that sense we see that normal people in Moscow have some representation. Unfortunately, we do not have a majority there. But we do have good, substantial representation, which allows us to engage in politics there. Our task is in September or in the Moscow City Duma elections later, if they happen, simply to improve our result.

Irina asked about protest actions specifically — whether you are going to do anything regarding the Constitution. But do I understand correctly that you, referring to quarantine measures, are saying that they cannot be held now? Does that mean that if the coronavirus situation does not improve dramatically, you will wind down all protest actions and campaign in some other way, and at least there will be no actions like there were last year?

Of course, there will be mass actions, and no one is winding anything down. The coronavirus, of course, will be defeated. Haven’t you heard Putin’s statement that the Russian vaccine is the best in the world?

Oh, well, at least on something you agree with Vladimir Putin.

We will defeat the coronavirus soon, and we will see each other at protest actions.

We’ve already defeated it, Alexei Anatolyevich.

And the journalists of Echo of Moscow, in order to compensate for those banners in support of the Constitution that are now hanging on your website, will be especially in the front rows. A. Navalny: This is a game, an illusion of voting that Putin is creating so that on July 1 he can say that “that’s it, I am a lifelong tsar”

Alexei, we offer you to place banners on our website. It’s a commercial offer, you understand.

Well, a commercial offer. But nevertheless, somehow… I think you yourselves don’t like those banners hanging there.

I like any banners that bring us money, Alexei. And I urge you, your wealthy foundation should definitely buy them.

On Wednesday we are expecting a parade, and as we can see from yesterday’s events they have already even begun arresting potentially dangerous people in advance. You aren’t by any chance preparing anything, Alexei Anatolyevich, weren’t corresponding with anyone, aren’t planning any performances?

Otherwise they’ve already insulted one veteran, gone that far.

In secret I just told you everything now…

Putin is secretly changing the Constitution…

…to the viewers and to all the numerous employees of Center “E” who are watching your broadcast, I just told it in secret. Seriously speaking about the parade, this is in general a crazy spectacle being staged for one person. This is an expensive event that will cost tens of billions of rubles across the country, and it really looks insane, because this is a real action to infect the most vulnerable part of the population. They are dragging veterans there, dragging old people there. And it is simply absolutely monstrous. And this is done absolutely so that Putin, on a triumphant note, can begin the vote on the reset. On the 24th — the parade, on the 25th — we begin voting. It is simply absolutely cynical, shameful, and only enemies of the country could do something like this [unintelligible].

After isolating them for two weeks before that…

A. Navalny: The government’s ratings are falling. It is flailing around. They do not know what to do

Yes, this is just a disgusting, shameful nuance, because these are not just veterans in the sense of elderly people, but actual war participants, whom they are dragging around and putting through this.

This is a somewhat more complicated story. Let’s not spend time on this now. If you want, after the interview with Alexei Navalny — I am addressing our listeners — I will tell you about it. But here let’s understand this. You are entering exactly the same field — Vladimir Putin’s field — when you say: “Let’s now pay veterans 200 thousand each,” and so on. Isn’t that the same story, the same populism?

Excuse me, such a field does not exist — the field of veterans, war participants…

The field of the war theme.

It is not Vladimir Putin’s field. This is one of the things that outrages me very much — that Putin and United Russia have privatized everything around them. They privatized for themselves: victory, veterans, military glory, the “Immortal Regiment.” All this is very outrageous. And when I introduced my bill to increase war participants’ pensions several times over, I also put political meaning into it, saying: “Guys, enough hypocrisy.” Right now we have only 75 thousand people left who were war participants. All of them are very old people over 94 years old. Let’s pay them at least as much as veterans’ pensions are in Germany. But for now United Russia refuses to do this. They shout: “We love veterans so much!” But they pay them 34 thousand rubles — that is, of course, simply a beggarly pension.

There are two more topics I want to get to, Alexei. Last time we spoke with you on Skype from this same studio and talked about the “5 steps.” Are you generally satisfied with how this campaign went and with the measures taken by the Russian authorities?

I am satisfied that according to polls a large number of people know about our campaign, and the overwhelming majority of the country’s citizens support the thesis when you explain to them what it is. But I am, of course, not satisfied that our authorities refused to implement these five steps.

A. Navalny: Our task is in September or in the Moscow City Duma elections later, if they happen, simply to improve our result

Well, how so? I received 10 thousand for my child, by the way.

You received 10 thousand for your child, but you should have received another 20 thousand for yourself and another 20 thousand for your spouse. And still, first of all, restrictive measures are still in effect, and still neither businesses nor people received any financial assistance for those 2.5 months when the economy was effectively not working, was very limited. Therefore I still insist that these support measures should be adopted. And we see around the world that such measures continue to be implemented. I am very disappointed by the actions of our government, which pretends that “Well, what, it’s already over. That’s in the past, let’s move on. No need to help anyone with anything.” This is working against the citizens.

One more thing about where your views intersect with Putin’s. He has now spoken about those parts of Russia that left with the republics, that, it turns out, Russia gave them such gifts, and they took those gifts with them. As a person who once often went to the “Russian Marches,” tell me, do you share Vladimir Putin’s concern that part of what were once Russian lands now do not belong to Russia?

Vladimir Putin has no concern whatsoever on this matter. Vladimir Putin simply has endless hypocrisy and deceit. When he effectively sold out all Russian citizens in Turkmenistan in exchange for gas, deprived them of pensions, deprived them of some support from the country, when they were oppressed there, in Turkmenistan, and in all the other countries as well — there were such situations — he was not interested in Russian citizens in the slightest. Now he says strange things either about Ukraine or about Kazakhstan, like let’s now take away Northern Kazakhstan…

Well, he doesn’t say it like that. That is your interpretation, forgive me.

Well, how else can it be interpreted? When I watched that fragment, when he was there with a stern face saying: “Let them return the gifts the Russian people gave them,” I didn’t even think of Ukraine first, but of Kazakhstan. Well then let him say that to Nazarbayev, or at least somehow explain what he means, because for now it is simply meaningless puffing of cheeks and an obvious attempt to distract attention from what is happening in the country with foreign policy adventures again. The Russian people — if Putin has decided to talk about the Russian people — are experiencing very serious problems. They are poor, they are drinking themselves into ruin, they are becoming impoverished. There are 23 million people in the country below the poverty line. And the Russian people right now, in particular, want this financial support. The Russian people want economic development. And that is what Vladimir Putin should be dealing with, not his reset, which is covered up on the one hand by a parade, and on the other hand by demagogic statements that we have lost territories. When he gave islands on the Amur to China, did he make those gifts on behalf of the Russian people or on behalf of himself? That is what interests me very much.

A. Navalny: The Russian people turned out to be the largest divided people in the world. And this is a big problem

You accused him of being insincere on this issue. So I will still ask you: do you share such concerns at all, not necessarily Vladimir Putin’s? Do you also think that Russia made gifts that ought to be returned?

I think there was a large, complex historical process of the collapse of the Russian Empire, then attempts at recreation, then the collapse of the Soviet Union. And indeed, the Russian people turned out to be the largest divided people in the world. And this is a big problem, a big difficulty, and we will experience the consequences of all this for many years. And our task is to help people, not to try to say some meaningless things. That is, what Putin is now saying — what, shall we really take Northern Kazakhstan away from Kazakhstan? Will that somehow help Russian people who live here and now in 2020? I am sure it absolutely will not.

And if it would help, should it be taken?

We do not reason in the subjunctive mood. We know what will help Russian people right now. Russian people and Bashkir people and any other people…

And Armenian people too — I insist on that.

Economic development will help. And Putin, as we see, has been ruining this economy in recent years. For 6 years in a row our population’s real income level has been falling. This is the war in which, unfortunately, Russians and all other nationalities have been losing for 6 years in a row. Their salaries have been shrinking for 6 years in a row. That is where the point of application of force is, and everything else is simply meaningless rhetoric. What is there to talk about?

We have 10 seconds left, we really won’t have time to talk. Did I understand correctly that you do not find the idea of restoring the old borders repulsive?

Listen, I do not find the idea repulsive if all the land enters the beautiful Russia of the future. But this idea is beautiful, but unrealistic. And the realistic idea is to deal here and now with our people, who could live much better than they do.

These were the words of politician Alexei Navalny. Thank you very much, Alexei, for being in touch with us. We now have to switch to the regions.

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Since we are talking about the weather, and Alexei Navalny is with us, we should still talk about storm drains, sewage, and rains. Tell me, Alexei, do you have a mug with the inscription: “I told you so,” and every time such rain comes, do you take a sip?

Yes, I do have one. And I drink from it in such big gulps… Because this whole dialogue, one-sided, of course, between me and Moscow City Hall about storm drains. There were so many interesting episodes there, when since 2016 we have been saying that all this reconstruction is just nonsense, it’s corruption. I remember so many people objecting to me — Revzin, such a wonderful person, wrote posts; and the whole city hall said I was wrong; all their well-paid propaganda gang was telling me how wrong I was. And now Warsaw Highway is flooding.

They say the leaves are to blame, the rain is to blame.

You understand, in no other country in the world are there any more leaves or rains, and only in Moscow does all this lead to problems. Therefore, seriously speaking, of course, political monopoly leads to monstrous corruption, and when not a single construction project in Moscow has any public oversight, that is what leads to flooding.

That was Meteoscope from Alexei Navalny. Goodbye!