Alexei Navalny’s conversation with Council of Europe rapporteur Jacques Maire

It was the routine of my work.

It was routine for

me in my work to be followed

and monitored on all my

business trips.

This surveillance was carried out by the

police or by the FSB. They

monitored me everywhere, all the time, in

Moscow or elsewhere.

You know, it's very easy to

spot them. They follow you everywhere and

pretend to be on the phone.

Two days after I was poisoned,

there was a very long and very

strange article that said, "Navalny was under

close surveillance the entire time."

Look at his schedule.

And so they published my exact

schedule even though no one was

supposed to know it.

So I think those FSB officers

who were responsible for my

surveillance tried to protect themselves

by saying,

"You see, we have nothing to hide,

we didn't do anything suspicious."

This poison squad was classified secret even

within the FSB itself. In reality, nobody

knows of their existence. They are not

like other FSB agents.

It wasn't always the same

people?

No, it's a regional unit. The

surveillance is the responsibility of the

regional FSB.

Otherwise, I would have seen the same people

all the time, which defeats

the very idea of surveillance.

So the plane lands, and then there is an

alert about your health; you

suddenly fall ill.

Had you noticed anyone acting

strangely on...?

No, it was the most ordinary flight,

nothing suspicious.

That's the whole beauty of

poisoning.

No one can know exactly at

what moment you are poisoned, or

how.

People wonder why choose

Novichok, because it is very complicated to

use.

But thanks to the bottle that was

recovered, we know that it happened

at the hotel.

Without that bottle, we

would have been convinced that

the poisoning took place at

the airport.

In fact, nothing suspicious happens

even when you've been poisoned

maybe 10 or 12 hours earlier.

Another investigation by Bellingcat shows

that the FSB is currently developing a

new method they call

nano-encapsulation.

It allows someone to be poisoned not

only through ingesting

food, but also simply through

contact.

The person only feels the effects

several days later.

Yet there was nothing strange to notice

beforehand.

That same day, there was a fake

bomb alert at the airport.

Do you know if an investigation was

conducted to find out who was behind

this fake...?

Well, uh uh Russian government—

The Russian government claimed that

Germany was responsible for that

false alarm.

Because Germany—

Yeah.

They insisted several times that this

email came from that country.

And that fuels all the conspiracy

theories. According to them, I was

poisoned by the German or European

secret services.

We have a real epidemic of fake

bomb threats in Russia.

And all of them are sent by email.

In reality, you can more easily

trace a phone call, whereas

emails can be completely

untraceable.

As far as I know,

there was no investigation into this

false alarm.

What is interesting

is that under Russian law,

any false alarm automatically

triggers a criminal investigation.

And here, there was none.

And it was the first time that a

false alarm originated from a foreign

country.

In fact, no one knows where it

came from.

We don't know the details. What

is certain is that it was indeed a

bomb threat.

When we landed,

one of my

associates spoke to a paramedic,

and he told him that the airport

building had already been evacuated.

But who sent it?

Nobody has any idea. The Russians

just said, "It's the Germans'

fault."

Let's talk about the pilot.

He overrode the alert. He

landed anyway.

Do you know what happened to him?

No.

I try, but not too much.

I'm afraid it might cause him trouble.

Because the truth is, that guy saved my

life.

So I try not to contact

him so as not to cause him

problems.

So then, you arrive at the hospital and... and

what happens?

Yes, that's an interesting question.

Because the initial reports were

published everywhere.

According to the first medical report, they

gave me atropine.

And then there was the claim that

it wasn't a

poisoning, that it was some kind of

diabetes or something like that that

had developed.

And then the medical authorities

began to deny that they had given me

atropine.

But my press secretary who was there

saw the paramedics' reaction.

They thought that it was an

intoxication, some kind of overdose.

Because the symptoms are the same.

The person falls into a coma.

So at first glance, immediately, the

paramedics knew it was an

intoxication, and that's why they

gave me atropine.

Because the basic emergency treatment is

the same.

By giving that medication, you buy

time, time to reach the hospital.

So the atropine was given to you in...?

Yes, in the ambulance, that's for sure,

but maybe also on the plane.

Because there was a doctor on...?

No, the airport first responders

boarded the plane

as soon as it landed.

For initial first aid.

And they waited for the ambulance from

the hospital. It took about 20 minutes

to get me off the plane.

It was an incredible mess.

So it was probably those—

Has the person who gave you [it] been identified?

Yeah, yeah, yes, yes, yes.

Because we heard that the head

of the hospital was promoted.

Yes, yes, of course.

Once again, it's a situation that is

both complicated and

simple at the same time.

Because... because the head of the hospital, the one

responsible for this false diabetes

narrative, was promoted

and became health minister in

his region.

And do you know what happened to the

doctor who gave you...?

No, no, no, it's the same case as

with the pilot.

I try not to draw too much

attention to his case.

Do you think it would be a problem if

we asked, for the investigation, to get

in touch with...?

I think it's a good idea to

contact them, but of course, it will be

complicated.

And it will be all the more complicated to

do so without the FSB finding

out.

If the FSB realizes that you are

looking into them,

they will put pressure on them.

It's not impossible that they would have you

meet fake doctors or

fake nurses.

There has already been that kind of

absolutely incredible story with a German

doctor

who supposedly evacuated me.

You've surely heard about that

story.

Supposedly, they were taken from

the plane to the hotel by FSB

agents, and there, the FSB agents

allegedly brought them to the hospital, but without

my wife knowing.

While my wife and my entire team

were running around the hospital trying

to

track down those famous

German doctors.

But the FSB agents literally

formed a bubble around them.

They brought them into intensive care

where I was.

They examined me and said,

"He is ready to be transferred."

Then, still surrounded by FSB

agents,

they escorted them out of the hospital, despite the

fact that my loved ones tried as best

they could to block their car

to question them.

Yet the FSB agents managed to

rush them out of the hospital anyway.

Right after that, they held

a press conference,

saying, "You know, the German

doctors examined him and they

confirmed that he cannot be transported

in his condition."

But that was a lie.

It's a story worthy of a

Hollywood movie.

Between the time you entered

the hospital and the time you were

transferred to Germany, how much time passes?

No, a little over 48 hours.

In fact, they waited nearly 48 hours

to obtain authorization to

evacuate me.

They also feared that beyond those

two days, the Novichok might become

undetectable.

Do you think there is something for us to

investigate on our end regarding what

happened during those...? Could we

question the hospital in Omsk where you...?

Well, if they agree to let you visit

the hospital in Tomsk,

yes, but the diagnosis they

gave me was ridiculous.

From a strictly medical standpoint,

it didn't hold up.

They didn't give me proper

treatment; it was a cover-up

operation, and we have the evidence for it.

What kind of treatment did you receive

during your...?

Nobody knows.

Nobody knows. My wife was only

allowed to see me once, and

after that I was isolated.

Did you get access to your file?

10 days later, after various

procedures, they finally agreed

to release the medical reports from

the hospital.

And they stick to their story.

Supposedly, I fell into a coma

because I was too hungry.

Because I allegedly had diabetes.

It's ridiculous. I've never had

diabetes.

And they insisted, "Yes, you do have

diabetes." I replied, "No, I

have never had diabetes. I can

prove it.

I don't have diabetes. I even have

official medical tests to prove it."

Do you think there could be other

evidence that we could...?

I think the best way

would be cooperation between

the Russian authorities and the Council of

Europe.

President Putin stated that

I was being monitored by the FSB.

But officially for other

reasons.

The best thing would be to question

those agents and talk to them.

You cannot question them

officially, but speak with them.

Just to clarify a simple point:

why were there doctors and chemists,

wherever I went,

and why didn't they take

the same plane,

taking flights on different

days, but going to the exact

same place where I was staying?

That would be crucial information.

So

for you, the existence of this kind

of team tailing you and

preceding you, that was a revelation?

Yes, I was in absolute shock.

For years, I had had no

doubt that I was being watched,

but this very specific squad with

chemists and doctors

shadowing me,

even on very short trips,

and whenever I spent the night

somewhere away from home,

they were there.

Yes, that was quite a

surprise.

Are you aware of any

precedent for this?

Yes, of course, there is Vladimir K—

Kara-Murza, I think you

know him. Yes, of course, but I mean

this:

this team of chemists and

doctors was unprecedented. Oh

yes, it was unprecedented.

We heard of something similar with Trotsky.

Trotsky.

Ah yes, not a very pleasant

historical example.

And yes,

it was the same thing.

We know that under the Stalin

regime, there was a special group

composed of people who tracked

Trotsky.

They attempted to assassinate him the

first time without success,

and then a second time.

Apparently, about twenty

people had prepared for it for

years.

Yes,

of course.

Here we have the exact same thing:

people who prepared for

years.

So in your view, their mission was to

kill you?

Of course, there is no doubt about it.

As you already know from the

latest Bellingcat revelations,

I had already been poisoned once before

on an airplane.

But I didn't feel any symptoms.

Then the same thing happened to my

wife.

So I don't have the slightest doubt that

these people were tailing us to

kill us.

But you know, it's not so easy

to poison someone.

It takes a lot of preparation.

Even if you are the FSB, you cannot

just walk into my hotel

and say, "Open the door."

There are security cameras.

You have to be able to get away.

You must operate with total security.

And even in total secrecy from

other FSB agents.

So it's a very

dangerous operation.

And they had to prepare for a very

long time.

I'd like to return to what

happened in Kaliningrad and what

happened to your wife. In your view, that was

a mistake?

Nobody knows.

For my part, yes, I think that was

a mistake and that you were the

actual target. Yes.

She must have eaten or touched something

that was originally intended for me.

Nobody knows. These people are insane;

maybe she was a target, [or] it was

probably a mistake on their part.

We believe the work done by

Bellingcat opens up many leads.

Do you think these

revelations could have an impact on

the authorities' reaction?

Yes, of course. And what kind of...?

They realized they had been

caught;

it will be very difficult for them to

deny it.

They tried to deny it, but it's very

difficult now,

and they don't know all the

new information that might be

the truth.

So I think they've become

both more aggressive and more

defensive.

At first they simply issued an outright

denial,

saying,

"Nothing happened, he poisoned

himself."

That's their standard playbook:

churning out different versions to

create confusion.

But now, with the identification of

these real individuals, with their photos,

they've been confronted by

journalists, by investigators.

That's why it's good that this

article was published.

You can always ask general questions

to people: "What do you know about

Navalny's poisoning?", but now with

the photos, you can ask

specifically whether they saw these individuals.

Is this like the Khashoggi

case, where they protect the...?

Ah.

That is the core question.

Everyone knows who ordered

Khashoggi's murder.

Yet they prosecute the low-level operatives

and shield those who gave the orders.

In my case, while in theory one could

imagine this was an

FSB operation without Putin being

aware,

that might perhaps allow for

a compromise regarding prosecutions.

But I am entirely certain: this was a

direct order from Putin.

So they protect everyone who

took part in it.

And do you think these Bellingcat revelations

are covered by Russian media,

that they have an...?

On national networks, they make

fun of this investigation and they make

fun of me.

Yet it is very different from what

used to happen.

Before August 20, it was strictly

forbidden to utter my name in any

way whatsoever.

Now,

it is brought up constantly.

They claim I am a CIA agent,

an extremist, a fraudster, a

criminal.

Yet the reality is,

they talk about it non-stop.

It's been the number-one topic for 4 months.

That could have two outcomes. The

first is making you more

visible and better known across the country; but

on the other hand, it's a way to

polarize debate in public

opinion.

No, I would say that among those who do not

support Putin,

and who perhaps don't support

me either,

the fact remains that for

everyone, this poisoning is

terrifying.

Because even if these people dislike

me,

they don't like

the idea either of a clandestine hit squad

operating inside

the state.

As for those within the elite

close to Putin,

they are the most terrified of all,

because they realize that this

could also be used to kill

them.

Well, let's look at the rational side of

Putin's decisions.

There are two interpretations.

The first:

over the past 3 to 4 years, they

never found the right moment to

achieve their goal.

That could be one interpretation.

Or the second interpretation could

be:

August

2020 was the right time, perhaps

June or August, and they decided to strike at

that exact moment.

We know the first attempt

occurred some time earlier, about

2 years ago.

And then there was another attempt in

Kaliningrad in July 2020.

And then another in August.

So I think they had received

the order to launch the operation.

Maybe that first attempt

on the plane was them trying

to measure the amount of poison

required.

Maybe it wasn't an

attempt to kill me.

Maybe it was; you know, some

experts told us there are no

trials with Novichok,

because you cannot run

tests with this substance.

It is utterly impossible to

test it in the field.

It's impossible. It can only be done

in a laboratory.

That is why I survived the

first time.

Just as Yulia survived the first time.

Because it is an extremely,

extremely difficult substance

to use.

You need a lab.

I assumed the situation in Khabarovsk

or Belarus

was the trigger. But it

appears they started doing this

much earlier. They certainly received

the order to prepare and launch this

operation

after I declared my candidacy for the

presidency of Russia.

I traveled extensively.

They didn't follow me for a

certain period, and then

they started following me on every single

trip.

Right from the moment I announced my

presidential bid.

Yet as you noted, someone

set up the entire apparatus and

rolled it out at least 4 years ago.

Because you have to assemble

teams of doctors, teams of

chemists who will start

following me.

It requires preparation, an

infrastructure

to pull this off.

The rest

is just assumptions.

But yes,

they were waiting for an opportunity.

You know, I travel with a group of

people. It isn't very easy

to carry out this poisoning in such

a way that no one

notices.

Because it is of course easier

to poison food. But

several people would have died, and

it would then be hard to explain it away

simply with diabetes.

What was it? Diabetes?

They waited for the right moment to

take action.

And the idea of poisoning is tied

to the fact that they want to make you suffer

before killing.

Because they could stage a

car accident, for instance.

I can't tell you that it's

truly painful.

Nor can I tell you

that you don't suffer at all.

It's a terrible feeling.

But poisoning rather than

a car accident

leaves a lot of room for

speculation and alternative versions.

It's hard to be certain about

anything; there is no evidence.

It's suspicious, but who knows

what really happened?

And then the second objective, which is

perhaps the main one behind choosing

poisoning, is that it is

terrifying.

People start to feel afraid. That is

one of the advantages of poisoning.

A lot of people start to be

scared.

Even here in Europe,

some European politicians say,

"They can just put a substance on my

door and that's enough, I die.

I don't want to mess with that."

People are afraid of these

mysterious deaths.

And I think that's the primary

goal.

And Putin enjoys the idea of people

being afraid of his absolute power.

It's very clear that you place

the blame on Putin.

Because you think he sees you

as a threat?

Not just me,

not me alone,

but also

all the people I represent.

There are more and more of them in my

organization.

We have conducted many investigations,

and we aren't afraid to take part in

rallies, protests,

meetings;

we travel

all across the country.

We don't just stay in Moscow,

unlike the vast majority of

the opposition,

which is simply found in Moscow and

Saint Petersburg.

We aren't afraid; we

also work everywhere across the

regions.

We aren't afraid to investigate

Putin's personal corruption.

And on top of that, we have plenty

of support.

Our organization is still able

to operate in an entirely

independent way. Because we rely on grassroots

donations, with many people sending us

very small amounts, so that

they cannot shut down our

activity

using standard methods.

Yet you have many enemies because,

how to say,

you expose high-level

corruption at the very top.

I watched the Medvedev film, which is very

interesting.

We have a lot to learn from you.

You have been harassed constantly over the past

10 years.

Did you never feel

that the threat could reach that

level?

Again, that's an interesting

question.

Because before, if someone had told me

that Putin wanted to kill me, I would have

said, "No."

What we knew

was that I could be thrown into

prison.

I could be harassed.

That kind of thing.

And you know, killing people with a

chemical weapon,

it sounds crazy.

And honestly, if it wasn't for the

laboratories stating it, I

never would have believed that it was

Novichok that I had been given, because

it's

completely insane.

And yes, that's what I thought, that

it was an illusion, that it was crazy.

They wouldn't use such

methods unless to kill people they

deem to be terrorists,

spies, or traitors.

So against political opponents, they

use other methods.

Like defamation campaigns

and imprisonment.

But clearly, that was a huge

mistake on my part.

A big, big mistake.

According to our information, the way

Putin handled it was by

banning your name from any public

speech. It was a sign of contempt,

a way of saying: we pay no

attention to such an

insignificant person.

He said literally the same thing

today.

He called me "the patient."

"The Berlin patient."

Once again, that implies that to him,

I'm an insignificant person. And

so why would we bother?

"Who is he

for us to...?"

That was it, that's my—

Yes, exactly, they act like that.

Still,

the question is: if I am so

insignificant,

why have they been tailing me for 4 [years]?

Of course,

they realize

that it's not about me.

It's about the people I represent,

whom I try to represent. That's

millions of people who don't want

to live in a country where all power

is concentrated in the hands of a single

person.

At least half the country wants

Russia to be a normal European nation.

And he wants to do everything to crush that

way of thinking and those political

movements.

We have now reached a point

where you are looking ahead to the future.

You were harassed, your apartment

was seized.

New charges were filed

to dissuade you from returning.

Hmm.

So, if you go back,

will they put you in...?

That's a question I'd like

an answer to.

Yet I have no idea. They

make threats constantly.

They seize my apartment, my

bank accounts, and they send

very clear signals and messages:

"Do not return." But I have no idea

what will happen. Will I

be arrested at...?

Or maybe afterwards. Maybe it

won't happen right away, and they'll wait

until everything settles down, and only then

arrest me.

Or maybe not. I have no

idea.

And as of right now, they have no

idea either.

They simply don't want

me to come back.

Just to avoid having that problem.

And to avoid having to make a

decision. Because their preferred

option is for me to just be another

émigré. They're weighing it. But they don't

know precisely what they will

do or what will happen.

What do you think will happen to your

movement or your foundation if you

do not return?

Everyone knows how the

organization works.

Because the truth is,

I already spend a good deal of time every

year in jail.

So they are used to it,

and they've learned to operate without me.

Naturally, it will be harder.

It wouldn't be

fatal. The organization could

carry on; it could function.

Yet it would be more difficult when it comes

to motivation and morale.

Are there other people who

can take the...?

Yes, of course.

There are other people who can

lead the fight and who are well known.

The organization has been running without me

for months; it is working very

well. There are other people who

could lead it.

Broadly speaking,

I think that if he killed me, it wouldn't

change anything.

Because there are other people

ready to take my place.

And I think there is something

personal for Putin regarding

this bizarre quirk, the fact that he never

utters my name.

You have never...? No, I have

never met him.

And he never mentions my name.

I don't know why.

Even though he has, yes, a very high opinion

of himself; he sees himself as a tsar or

architect of Russia.

And you know,

that's not the kind of person who is

afraid.