Live on the air of Echo of Moscow radio: Alexei Navalny, executive secretary of the Committee for the Protection of Muscovites. Hosted by Olga Bychkova. O. BYCHKOVA - Olga Bychkova at the microphone, good afternoon. Our informed guest today is Alexei Navalny, executive secretary of the Committee for the Protection of Muscovites. Good afternoon, Alexei. A. NAVALNY - Good afternoon. O. BYCHKOVA - So, the Committee for the Protection of Muscovites has appealed to the antimonopoly authorities over the construction of Krasnopresnensky Prospekt in Moscow. The appeal concerns how the tender for the right to build this avenue was conducted. And just recently, representatives of the Committee for the Protection of Muscovites met with Vladimir Resin, First Deputy Mayor in the Moscow city government. Also taking part were Moscow architects, deputies of the Moscow City Duma, and representatives of citizens' initiative groups. Construction in Moscow is, of course, a very pressing issue. Who exactly are you protecting Muscovites from? A. NAVALNY - First and foremost, we are protecting Muscovites from dishonest officials. The issue really is extremely relevant. At present, there are at least 500 initiative groups in Moscow fighting officials and developers in this area. I can give just one striking figure: according to official statistics, over the past seven years every resident of the Central Administrative District has signed some kind of appeal to the authorities regarding illegal construction. We regularly see roads being blocked off, construction sites being obstructed, and so on. This is a very urgent issue. And unfortunately, it is becoming even more urgent: construction-related conflicts are growing more and more frequent. That is why we created a civic movement that now includes 70 initiative groups, so that we can jointly defend our interests in urban development. O. BYCHKOVA - So these 70 initiative groups are basically 70 places on the map of Moscow where these kinds of conflicts are unfolding? A. NAVALNY - Yes. O. BYCHKOVA - Our listener Boris is asking about this recent story with Krasnopresnensky Prospekt: where do things currently stand in your dealings with the antimonopoly authorities, and have you tried to investigate the whole matter? In other words, on what grounds did you approach these official bodies? A. NAVALNY - Yes, we did investigate it, of course, and the result of that investigation was our appeal to the antimonopoly service. At the moment, the situation is rather bleak. What we established is that a contract worth 45 billion rubles was awarded with absolutely no tender at all - simply by fiat. In other words, $1.5 billion was handed over to some company to build Krasnopresnensky Prospekt. Here is another striking figure: 1 kilometer of this road costs $200 million. We do not believe we live in such a rich country, or such a rich city, that contracts of this size can simply be handed out like that. Nevertheless, construction is proceeding at full speed. Quite recently, a decision was even made to continue construction around the clock. The antimonopoly service has accepted our complaint for review and has sent an inquiry to the Moscow city government to hear its position on the matter. Once the city government's response is reviewed, a decision will be made on whether to open an antimonopoly investigation. O. BYCHKOVA - Alexei Navalny, representative of the Committee for the Protection of Muscovites and its executive secretary, is with us live in the studio. By the way, questions are already pouring in, including many requests for the committee's contact details - phone number and address. We will try to give some contact information at the end of the program. A. NAVALNY - Yes, of course. O. BYCHKOVA - We will now break for a minute for a short news bulletin, and then Alexei Navalny will return to the live studio. We will talk in more detail about these 70 initiative groups that already exist and are involved in conflicts across Moscow - what they are and what is happening there. Back in a minute. O. BYCHKOVA - And we continue our conversation with Alexei Navalny, executive secretary of the Committee for the Protection of Muscovites. We are talking about illegal construction in Moscow. Or perhaps not only illegal construction - legal construction as well. But construction that, one way or another, raises various questions. Alexei said that the committee works together with 70 citizen initiative groups - that is, at least 70 addresses around which conflicts and legal disputes are taking place? A. NAVALNY - These are 70 groups we work with actively and continuously. In practice, of course, many more people come to us, but there are 70 initiative groups that are genuinely very active and are really doing things together with us. O. BYCHKOVA - For example, what addresses are these, what places, and what are these people actively doing? A. NAVALNY - I can simply list some of the hotspots that everyone has heard about. For example, Posner's school - the violations there are absolutely outrageous. When you talk to officials from the prefecture or city hall, they immediately clutch their heads when they hear the phrase "Posner's school." But even so, nothing has changed. The so-called phenol houses are also well known now, as is Krasnopresnenskoye Highway. There is probably no point listing every location. One interesting case we are actively dealing with now is in Ostankino, where a residential building is being constructed. What is especially interesting there is that it is a building for deputies: current State Duma deputies and employees of the television center live there. O. BYCHKOVA - On Korolev Street? A. NAVALNY - Yes. They are trying to defend their rights, but even they - people who, you would think, are not so easy to push around - immediately start filing parliamentary inquiries and raising a scandal, yet still cannot achieve anything. They turned to us, and we are helping them too. O. BYCHKOVA - And what is the problem there? A. NAVALNY - They are building a house in the protected zone of the Sheremetev estate, and it will simply ruin the whole area's layout and appearance. There are many violations there. There is no point getting too deep into technical terminology right now, but the violations are real. And unfortunately, the authorities are not reacting at all. O. BYCHKOVA - How do these initiative groups behave, what do they do? You say that petitions, letters, and complaints produce no results. A. NAVALNY - Yes, petitions and letters almost never produce results. And much to our regret, court cases are also completely ineffective. It is a paradox, really, but I never advise initiative groups to go to court. In fact, this is a standard tactic of the Moscow mayor's office and the prefectures: they always say there is only one civilized way to resolve the problem - go to court. Go to court, let us litigate, if you think your rights have been violated. But in practice, court cases drag on for years. While the initiative group is in court, the building is fully completed, commissioned, and occupied by new residents, and then of course nothing can be changed. So it is precisely out of this sense of hopelessness, so to speak, that these initiative groups are joining together into larger public associations in order to defend their rights collectively. O. BYCHKOVA - And are there any results from this kind of activity? If the courts do not help, then what does? A. NAVALNY - Unfortunately, according to the statistics I keep, some kind of positive outcome is achieved in fewer than 10% of cases. Still, a lot depends on the initiative group. If people really stand up for themselves - there is the well-known case of Yegerskaya Street, where a building was already half constructed, and people truly showed the authorities that they were going to defend their rights. Quite firmly, perhaps even radically. Construction was stopped immediately, and the builders' permit was revoked. And now everything there is fine. O. BYCHKOVA - Your meeting with Mr. Resin, First Deputy Mayor in the Moscow city government - what did it lead to? Was there really such a representative group of citizens there? A. NAVALNY - Yes, in fact we are satisfied with our meeting with Resin. It went very positively. He did not just meet with us to brush us off with excuses. He also invited Moscow's chief architect Kuzmin, the head of the Mosproekt-2 workshop Posokhin, city duma deputies, and representatives of the architectural community. And at that meeting we proposed some specific mechanisms - fairly simple ones, but in our view effective - that could improve the situation as soon as tomorrow. O. BYCHKOVA - For example? A. NAVALNY - For example, we have a major problem with informing residents. Although the city is, of course, doing some work in this area, if you as a Moscow resident try to find out the development plan for your district, there is a high probability you will fail. That is because our district heads often behave like Malchish-Kibalchish (a Soviet children's story character who keeps a military secret): they know the secret, but they will not tell anyone. It is unclear why, but they simply hide district development plans from residents. And this often leads to scandals out of nowhere. O. BYCHKOVA - But is that illegal, or do the laws allow them to hide it? A. NAVALNY - It is absolutely illegal. We have an Urban Planning Code that explicitly states that all urban development plans must either be coordinated with residents or, at the very least, residents must be informed about them. More broadly, it is accepted citywide policy that the public and civic organizations should participate in shaping urban development plans. But for some reason - you know the saying, give a fool something sacred to do and he will smash his forehead - teach a district head to do something like this, and he immediately starts hiding everything from everyone and creating all sorts of absurd situations. So we proposed some fairly simple and effective methods to Resin. For example, at the pre-design stage, information about every construction project could simply be posted on the district administration's website. Every district administration has a website. This is a mechanism that requires no money at all and no special human or administrative resources. Yet this method, along with several other simple measures we proposed, could in our view eliminate up to 30% of such conflicts. O. BYCHKOVA - Against the backdrop of these military secrets you mentioned, that sounds wildly revolutionary. But in reality, if they post, say, a plan for a building that violates all the environmental conditions in the area and everything else, they will still go ahead and build it. That would not change anything, would it? What about feedback? A. NAVALNY - The point is that all this has to happen at the pre-design stage. Because in practice, what happens is that one morning you wake up, look out the window, and see that something is being built under your building: a bulldozer is there and a fence is going up. By that point, investors have already put in money, architects have already been paid for the design, the land has already been bought, and in practical terms almost nothing can be changed. Because any attempt to change something at that stage would create a massive conflict. A lot of money has already been spent, as I said. If these things were coordinated at the pre-design stage, investors would avoid unnecessary expenses, and it would be easier, I think, to resolve issues with residents. Of course, we live in a city, not a village, and it is impossible to coordinate every single project with city residents, because then construction would simply stop. And the 700,000 people working in the construction sector would be left without jobs. We are not utopians; we understand perfectly well that no normal person will ever agree to have something built next to their home. But there still has to be some kind of dialogue. The public should at least participate in determining the basic direction - whether residential buildings should be built there in principle, or office buildings. O. BYCHKOVA - Or nothing at all. A. NAVALNY - Or nothing at all. Of course, in most cases residents will say: build nothing. But that does not mean we should simply operate under a regime of military secrecy and present them with a fait accompli: tomorrow a 17-story tower will stand in front of your windows. That simply leads to scandals, to builders losing money because residents block the construction site, and to residents hating the district head and prefecture forever. And unnecessary conflicts often arise literally out of nowhere. O. BYCHKOVA - But I still do not understand how this is supposed to be taken into account - what is the mechanism? Public opinion should be represented by whom? Fine, by your committee, but I imagine there are not enough of you for all of Moscow, for every neighborhood. There has to be some organized mechanism, right? A. NAVALNY - Even our law on local self-government contains a fairly simple instrument: public hearings. Why not hold public hearings on the most contentious sites? We are under no illusion that after such hearings all problems will be resolved and everyone will hug, kiss, and go home. Of course that will not happen. But we are sure there would be at least some movement. And based simply on our practical experience, we are convinced that if work with residents were done at the pre-design stage, 30-40% of conflicts could be avoided. There are actually quite a few public organizations like ours. Ours is probably the largest in Moscow, but there are around 30 more or less active organizations that unite initiative groups. There are professional associations of architects, groups of old Moscow enthusiasts, and even an association of journalists that defends citizens' interests in this sphere. So this is, in fact, a fairly substantial segment of civil society, and the authorities simply need to engage in dialogue with it. And incidentally, Resin himself agreed that direct dialogue between residents and the authorities, without intermediaries such as civic organizations, is very difficult, because no one ever believes a state official. It is perfectly obvious that even if a prefect or chief architect came with complete openness and told the truth exactly as it is, no one would believe him. They agreed with that and acknowledge it. So what is needed here is the involvement of civil society mechanisms, public organizations of this kind. In practice, every district has public councils or something similar. So such organizations simply need to be brought in to help resolve these problems. O. BYCHKOVA - One might assume that one of the problems - or one of the main problems - is that the official, generally speaking, has no interest in this at all. A. NAVALNY - Of course. What are they interested in? They are given an order to build a house, and they are interested in getting that house built, plain and simple. They have little interest in the development of social infrastructure or anything else. Money goes into the budget, the city needs money, so the attitude is: build, build, and build some more, despite the fact that development is already very dense. At this rate, we will soon be like Hong Kong, even though there are absolutely no objective reasons for that - thank God, ours is a large country and there is room to expand. So there is no need at all to pile houses on top of one another. O. BYCHKOVA - Olga Ivanovna asks: what is the practice in foreign cities when it comes to building construction - is it discussed with residents or not? It is discussed, Olga Ivanovna. What have you studied, and what can be used here? A. NAVALNY - In practice, of course, it varies from country to country. And naturally, one has to take into account the specifics of different cities. If a Moscow city government official were sitting here, he would smile broadly and say: by the way, building density in European cities is much higher than in Moscow, and that is what we should be striving for. But it all depends on local specifics. Small European countries have very expensive land, so they have to follow their own path. We need to follow our own path too, at least in this area. O. BYCHKOVA - A listener asks how this mechanism of interaction between city authorities, developers, and residents works. A. NAVALNY - There is probably nowhere that residents directly decide for themselves where construction will take place. O. BYCHKOVA - But they do participate to varying degrees. A. NAVALNY - Naturally, they participate to a much greater degree than here. If public opinion as a whole really comes out against a particular project - and in Moscow we often see that, in Krasnaya Presnya, Kuntsevo, Krylatskoye, where rallies of many thousands of people literally take place - then abroad, if the public mobilizes, it is fairly easy, so to speak, to block the construction of a given project. Unlike in Moscow, where if a decision has been made at the city level, it is very difficult to change anything. O. BYCHKOVA - Alex asks whether the process is reversible - whether it is possible to reconstruct districts where illegal development has taken place. Alas. A. NAVALNY - We do not know of such precedents. Well, there is, for example, the case of Neskuchny Garden, where houses had already begun to be built, and residents of nearby buildings really did manage to defend their interests. There was a court decision, and the already built foundations were demolished, covered over with earth again, and trees were planted. But that is an isolated case. I think in practice it is almost impossible. O. BYCHKOVA - Do you have examples where all this activity ended in success? A. NAVALNY - Neskuchny Garden, Yegerskaya Street - yes, there are such examples. In fact, there are quite a large number of projects left in limbo because residents are opposed - there are dozens of such sites across Moscow. And the problem there is that builders suffer too, because their investments are left hanging, so to speak, while residents are left in uncertainty. But again, these are isolated cases where residents managed to succeed. O. BYCHKOVA - That was Alexei Navalny, executive secretary of the Committee for the Protection of Muscovites. We were talking about construction in Moscow. And please answer our many listeners who are asking for your contact details. A. NAVALNY - Yes, please get in touch. Our phone number is 780-30-14. O. BYCHKOVA - Thank you, Alexei, and thank you to our listeners who took part in this conversation. I will now print everything out from the pager and be sure to pass it on to Alexei Navalny.
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