Conversation from March 24, 2017. Commentary on the investigation “He’s Not Your Dimon”

A. PLYUSHCHEV: There are several questions in connection with the upcoming rallies. In how many cities is there currently approval for rallies?

A. NAVALNY: We proceed from the fact that all the cities that are participating are participating entirely lawfully, and approval exists by virtue of the Constitutional Court ruling. Right now ninety-nine cities are taking part in the action. In some of them, as I recall, about fifteen cities, the administrations directly gave papers saying, go ahead and hold the rally, everything is approved, while in all the others no alternative venue was offered. Therefore, in accordance with the Constitutional Court's decision, we are holding them where we submitted the application, and this is absolutely lawful.

A. PLYUSHCHEV: Do I understand correctly that in fifteen cities there are papers, and in some number of cities those papers were later withdrawn as well? Yes, absolutely right, because initially they were issuing permission to absolutely everyone in the hope that this would be a group of, as they think, three lunatics who are, well, against corruption.

A. NAVALNY: When they saw that even in small towns, some really tiny towns, still several dozen people were submitting an application in the town of Stara-Dubu, where, presumably, there had never been any rallies in living memory. This seriously disturbed them, so they began massively revoking permits that had already been issued under very ridiculous pretexts, such as that the computer had broken down or that on the twenty-sixth in the future a technological accident would occur at that place.

A. PLYUSHCHEV: Well, you did say that in accordance with the Constitutional Court ruling, if there is no response from the authorities, then approval has been obtained. Other lawyers interpret this Constitutional Court ruling differently, and they, generally speaking, believe that you are setting people up to be beaten with batons. Why should they believe you specifically?

A. NAVALNY: Other lawyers are wrong. They understand nothing. And people should believe me because other lawyers used to say before that I was wrong. But, in the end, on all the detentions, on the numerous detentions, I won cases in the European Court of Human Rights. The government was forced to agree with this and pay me compensation there, several million rubles for these detentions.

That is, there is simply a legally proven fact that my approach to holding rallies and mass events is the correct and lawful one, and not the way certain lawyers who look back at the Kremlin interpret it.

A. PLYUSHCHEV: Today you effectively made an offer to those who go to these actions to defend their interests in the European Court of Human Rights. Did I understand correctly?

A. NAVALNY: Absolutely right. Even if it requires writing hundreds of complaints or thousands of complaints, I will certainly do it. And I have no doubt about a favorable outcome in these cases. I have no doubt that every person will be paid compensation, not even because I am some kind of great lawyer and can work miracles, but simply because the practice of the European Court on this matter is very clear. And all the cases that I sent concerning myself, concerning people whose interests I defended, we won them all.

A. PLYUSHCHEV: But in general, the European Court for an ordinary person, it seems to me, is a long process. And in general now it is not always possible to get payment on these claims. But ending up in the paddy wagon is a quick matter. How would you answer those people?

A. NAVALNY: I don’t see a big risk here of ending up in jail. In fact, even if we remember the peak of protest activity, only a handful of people ended up in jail. Secondly, as for Moscow, the format I proposed is that at two p.m. on March 26 everyone should go out to any point on Tverskaya Street from any metro station, starting from Belorusskaya and ending with Okhotny Ryad, and simply walk along the sidewalk of Tverskaya Street counterclockwise. It seems to me fairly safe. And no, there will be no reason to detain anyone. Once again, even at the peak of detentions in 2011–2012, it was always just a couple dozen people there.

A. PLUSHCHEV: It’s some kind of format like the Sunday walks now, when a hundred or two hundred people go out there. Very similar.

A. NAVALNY: It’s similar, something from that series, because I thought for a long time about what format to propose. After all, I try to approach this responsibly. So what is needed is some kind of thing that does not need to be coordinated and that minimizes the likelihood of detentions or any incidents, but gives everyone the opportunity to go out into the streets, well, at least to walk through the streets of their hometown as a sign of protest against corruption.

A. PLUSHCHEV: And what will that achieve? People are walking without banners, yes, not shouting slogans. I don’t know, but you can’t really even repost that image on social media afterward. How will people even know that someone came out in Moscow? Well, some kind of crowd was walking around, and Tverskaya is full of that on Sundays anyway.

A. NAVALNY: Well, I’m sure that, first of all, it will be noticeable. Secondly, it is an act of simply personally demonstrating one’s attitude toward all this.

Basically, this kind of pop-up approach, this kind of fatalistic one—well, nothing can be changed, nothing can be done, it won’t lead to anything—that is exactly what leads to Russia being in this backward, degrading, and very poor მდგომარეობ. All the countries of Eastern Europe have long since moved forward. Just look even at wage levels. And in Russia, in the richest country, because we think, well, why go out, make a fuss, it won’t lead to anything, we are in this poverty and will always remain in it until we understand that only in those countries where people go out into the streets against corruption is there economic development, only in those countries are there, if you like, high salaries, and we will have them too. We need to go out, at least in this form.

A. PLUSHCHEV: Well, knowing the history of various demonstrations, we can imagine that the nominal leaders, including, first and foremost, of course, you, Alexei Navalny, may be detained on the way there or maybe even the day before. Well, what’s the point of going without you?

A. NAVALNY: Well, if I’m detained, then what, go without me? And corruption—if I were detained, would anything change? And our attitude toward Medvedev and his villas, vineyards—would anything change? No, I’m sure that the people who go out into the streets, which is what I’m urging all Muscovites to do, are not going for me, they are going there for themselves, and for them nothing will change regardless of whether I’m detained, because they came out for a more dignified, more prosperous future for themselves and their children. These people are stealing billions from them. That’s why they are going out into the streets, not to look at me, whether I am there or not.

A. PLUSHCHEV: In your opinion, how harshly will the authorities meet those who go out into the streets on March 26, primarily in Moscow?

A. NAVALNY: I think that—we have no reason whatsoever to meet anyone harshly. The format of our action is new, and it makes any harsh actions by the authorities as difficult as possible. Because if you just start grabbing everyone on the street, you’ll grab half the capital’s visitors who came to Tverskaya for a Sunday walk. So I do not expect any large number of incidents, and I think that overall across the country our action will be peaceful but convincing, because, well, I honestly don’t remember in Russia’s recent history any action of this scale taking place simultaneously in so many cities across the country. And so once again I urge people to come and take part in our common action against corruption.

A. PLUSHCHEV: What do you think, uh, well, rather, I wanted to ask you, what should people do if there is, after all, some kind of harsh scenario there—what should people do if they are dispersed? I don’t know, not leave until the end, run as soon as there is an opportunity, and so on.

A. NAVALNY: No, well of course, of course, there is no need to get into any incidents. If the police block the road, well, then you need to step aside and go elsewhere. Because, well, what is the practice—nobody attacks anyone, I mean the police do not beat people. More often, what do they do—they simply cordon something off, do not let people pass. But the format of our action allows for quite a flexible approach to this. The task is simply to come to any point on Tverskaya Street, where there are many metro stations and which is quite long, so this is easy to do. And simply walk some section of Tverskaya Street in the same direction together with everyone else. It is easy to do. Therefore, well, if you see, say, a police officer is bothering you or saying something, fine, turn around and come out from another metro station.

A. PLUSHCHEV: Is there any hope at all that the action will still be approved? After all, a piece of paper reassures many people. Have all contacts with the Moscow authorities on this matter been cut off?

A. NAVALNY: We are absolutely open to the Moscow authorities and constantly tell them: guys, we are reasonable people. The city center is large. If you think Tverskaya Street is impossible, we are ready to discuss any other venue in central Moscow. But the authorities precisely do not want these contacts and currently are not having them with us. In general, it is clear why. City Hall has nothing to do with it. Putin and Medvedev first and foremost—they still have not said a single word regarding our investigation. And to allow us to hold a legal rally, to which even more people would come, would mean that they would be forced to comment on something there, that this topic would enter the news agenda even more strongly. So of course they are terribly afraid. That is why they are banning these, generally speaking, quite harmless rallies all over the country right now, simply because they want to keep silent. They want the topic of corruption, the topic of these eighty billion that Medvedev spent on yachts and palaces, to go away as quickly as possible, so that no one would watch any films anymore, call Medvedev Dimon, or remember the Italian vineyards. But legal rallies would, of course, raise this topic to a completely different level.

A. PLUSHCHEV: Well, by the way, how much do you think the topic of corruption motivates people to come out? Is it for them now the most important, central, burning issue that will drive them into the street?

A. NAVALNY: I don’t know whether it is the main one, but I repeat, not once in my entire period of political activity, nor in fact in my whole life as long as I have followed politics, have I ever seen a Russian protest action—well, you know, the Communist Party likes to hold them, many parties hold them regularly—involving this many cities. I see this for the first time in all of Russia’s modern history. From this I draw an obvious conclusion: I do not know whether the topic of corruption is the most painful one, but it is definitely painful enough for so many people to take part in it, people who, by the way, have never gone to any rallies before. That is the special feature of these applicants this time. Ninety-nine percent of our people have never taken part in any rallies and are not involved in any political activity.

A. PLUSHCHEV: How many people do you think will come out in Moscow, and how many in the country as a whole will take part? Roughly what order of magnitude are your expectations?

A. NAVALNY: It is hard for me to predict that at all. Our last two rallies of this kind were probably in 2014. In recent years, only the Nemtsov memorial march has taken place in Moscow. And there have been no other protest actions of a different kind at all for many years. And across the country there have never been any. Therefore, apart from the largest cities like St. Petersburg, Novosibirsk, or Yekaterinburg—Orenburg—therefore I won’t even venture to predict anything close. Well, however many come, that’s how many come. That’s the nature of it.

A. PLUSHCHEV: All right, I’ll ask differently. What number would you consider successful?

A. NAVALNY: I would like, most importantly, for it to take place in all cities. That is, what matters here is the number of cities participating. I understand that now in many cities people are being intimidated, but for me it will be important that out of these ninety-nine cities where actions have been announced, the action takes place in the majority.

A. PLUSHCHEV: And one last question. Not so much a question, I don’t know whether you heard or not, but it turns out Medvedev met with a representative of the truck drivers, who, by the way, are planning to strike on Monday, and unexpectedly told them that he, it turns out, had not been ill, as President Putin had said.

A. NAVALNY: Yes, I heard about that. Well, we all knew he wasn’t ill, because at the same time there were photographs of him from some resorts. He simply disappeared. I don’t know, there were all sorts of conspiracy theories that he went on a binge after our film or something like that. I can’t say, I know nothing about it. It was completely obvious to me that after the release of our film Medvedev—well, he simply disappeared. For two weeks he skipped government meetings. I think Putin understood perfectly well why Medvedev was somehow ashamed to show himself to people. He couldn’t very well say that our Dima was sitting at home puking. So he said: he fell ill. Yes, Medvedev is a liar. A funny situation, which perfectly demonstrates how they really have nothing to say and don’t even get confused in such elementary lying.

A. PLUSHCHEV: And one more question. Of course, the most discussed topic for us is the murder of deputy Voronenkov. And among the versions, well, for me this is probably the craziest version, but nevertheless I saw that this was being used as a kind of special warm-up for the rallies on the twenty-sixth. So far I haven’t seen accusations specifically directed at you, but nevertheless.

A. NAVALNY: Well, I can only share your opinion that this really is a very crazy version. And, well, only a strange person could say such a thing.

A. PLUSHCHEV: Thank you very much! Alexei Navalny on the upcoming rallies on March 26 in Moscow.